Author’s Note: This blog post has been expanded and clarified in my book Courtship in Crisis.
I grew up as a member of the homeschool community back when we were hiding from the cops and getting our textbooks from public school dumpsters. When I was a teenager, my friends started reading this new book called I Kissed Dating Goodbye. For months we could talk of little else. After reading it myself, I grew into as big an opponent of dating as you could find. Dating was evil and Courtship, whatever it was, was godly, good and Biblical.
My grandparents would often ask why I wasn’t dating in high school. I explained what courtship was and quoted Joshua Harris, chapter and verse. Their response surprised me.
“I don’t think courtship is a smart idea,” my grandfather said.
“How can you tell who you want to marry if you aren’t going out on dates?” my grandmother wondered every time the topic came up. I tried to convince them but to no avail. They both obstinately held to the position that courtship was a foolish idea.
Well, what did they know? They were public schooled. I ignored their advice on relationships, preferring to listen to the young people around me who were passionate advocates of courtship.
As I grew older, I started to speak at homeschool conferences and events. I talked with homeschool parents, students and alumni all over the country and started to see some challenges with making courtship work.
Some of the specific challenges I identified were:
- Identification (Finding that other person)
- Interaction (Spending time with the other person)
- Initiation (Starting the relationship)
So I founded PracticalCourtship.com. Its purpose: to instigate a national conversation about how to make courtship more practical. Visits and comments poured in from all over the country about how to make courtship work and why it did not work.
Each year I waited for courtship to start working and for my homeschool friends to start getting married. It never happened. Most of them are still single. Some have grown bitter and jaded. Then couples who did get married through courtship started getting divorced. I’m talking the kind of couples who first kissed at their wedding were filing for divorce.
This was not the deal!
The deal was that if we put up with the rules and awkwardness of courtship now we could avoid the pain of divorce later. The whole point of courtship was to have a happy marriage, not a high divorce rate.
So I humbled myself and took my grandmother out for dinner to hear why she thought courtship was a bad idea all those years ago. She had predicted the failure of courtship back in the 90s and I wanted to understand how and why.
Now let me define what I mean by “courtship”.
So what is courtship anyway?
After 20 years there still is no general consensus as to what courtship is. But here are the elements most conservative communities have in common:
- The man must ask the woman’s father’s permission before pursuing the woman romantically.
- High accountability (chaperones, monitored correspondence, etc).
- Rules about physical contact and purity. (The specific rules vary from community to community).
- The purpose of the courtship is marriage
- High relational intentionality and intensity
- High parental involvement. Fathers typically hold a “permission and control” role rather than the traditional “advice and blessing” role held by their fathers.
The Case for Traditional Dating
My grandmother grew up in a marginally Christian community. People went to church on Sunday, but that was the extent of their religious activity. They were not the Bible-reading, small-grouping, mission-tripping Christian young people common in evangelical churches today.
And yet her community of friends all got married and then stayed married for decades and decades. So what on earth were they doing that worked so well? Over dinner, my grandmother shared her story about what dating was like back in the 30s and 40s.
When my grandmother dated in middle school (yes, middle school) her parents had one primary rule for her.
The Primary Dating Rule: Don’t go out with the same guy twice in a row.
So if she went out for soda with Bob on Tuesday, she had to go to a movie with Bill on Thursday before she could go to the school dance with Bob on Saturday.
That sounded crazy to me. So, I asked her the rationale behind it. She explained that the lack of exclusivity helped them guard their hearts and kept things from getting too serious too quickly. The lack of exclusivity kept the interactions fun and casual. “The guys wouldn’t even want to kiss you!” She said.
The lack of exclusivity helped the girls guard their hearts and kept the boys from feeling entitled to the girl. How could a boy have a claim to her time, heart or body if she was going out with someone else later that week?
She went on to explain that by the time she graduated from high school, she had gone out on dates with over 20 different guys. This meant that by the time she was 17 years old she knew which Bob she wanted to marry. They got married and stayed married till my grandfather passed away half a century later.
“If I had only gone out with 3 or 4 guys I wouldn’t have known what I wanted in a husband,” she said.
It is not that her parents were uninvolved; it is that they played an advisory role, particularly as she entered high school and they relaxed the rules about not going steady.
The Difference Between “Dating” and “Going Steady”
She went on to explain that there used to be a linguistic differentiation between “dating” and “going steady”. “Going steady” meant you were going out with the same person multiple times in a row. It often had symbols like the girl wearing the guy’s letter jacket. This telegraphed to everyone at school that she was “off the market” and that she had a “steady beau”.
It seems that my great grandparents’ rule forbidding my grandmother from going out with the same guy twice in a row was a common rule in those days.
The Greatest Generation was encouraged to date and discouraged from going steady while in middle school.
This is different from my generation, which is encouraged to “wait until you are ready to get married” before pursuing a romantic relationship. This advice, when combined with the fact that “the purpose of courtship is marriage”, makes asking a girl out for dinner the emotional equivalent of asking for her hand in marriage.
I am not convinced that anyone is ever truly ready to get married. Readiness can become a carrot on a stick, an ideal that can never be achieved. Marriage will always be a bit like jumping into a pool of cold water. A humble realization that you are not ready and in need of God’s help may be the more healthy way to start a marriage.
As the decades moved on, our language and behavior changed. We stopped using the phrase “going steady” and changed “dating” to mean “going steady”. For example, we would now say “John and Sarah have been dating for 3 months.” when the Greatest Generation would have said “John and Sarah have been going steady for 3 months.”
We then started using new pejoratives like “dating around” and “playing the field” to describe what used to just be called “dating”. Each decade added more exclusivity, intensity, and commitment to dating and saw a subsequent rise in temptation and promiscuity.
It is easier to justify promiscuity when you are exclusively committed to just one person, even if that commitment is only a week old.
In the late 80s and early 90s this promiscuous culture reached its peak. People would “go steady” for just a few weeks and then move on to the next relationship. It was this “hookup and breakup” culture that the founders of courtship were reacting to.
But their proposed solution involved adding even more commitment, exclusivity and intensity, the very things that lead to the problem in the first place. This is why courtship is fundamentally flawed.
The courtship movement eliminated dating and replaced it with nothing.
Or, put another way, they replaced dating with engagement. The only tangible difference between an engagement and a courtship is the ring and the date.
Similarities between Courtship & Engagement:
- They both require the permission of the father.
- They both are intended for marriage.
- They are not “broken up” but are instead “called off”.
- When they are called off there is an inevitable rending of a community as one of the couple no longer feel comfortable spending time with the community of their ex-future spouse.
Young people are expected to jump from interacting with each other in groups straight into “pseudo-engagement”. This is a jump very few are prepared to make. The result is that a commitment to courtship is often a commitment to lifelong singleness.
Why the Courtship Divorce Rate is So High
Recently I have seen a spike in divorces amongst couples who courted. I have a few theories as to why this is. Young people whose parents often maintain veto power on all of their decisions are then expected to make this most important decision without any experience in good decision making. They have no context of who they are, past decision making or an idea of what they are looking for in a spouse.
How can you know what personality you fit well with if you only go out with one other person? The result can be a mismatched couple and a marriage that is difficult to sustain.
Right now all we have little research to go on in terms of the courtship divorce rate. In my observations, some homeschool communities have a much higher divorce rate than others. I would be very interested in seeing some research on this phenomenon. This blog post is my call for more research on the divorce rate amongst couples who “courted” before getting married.
Advantages of Traditional Dating
Less Temptation – It is hard to fall in love with Bob on Tuesday when you know you are going out for coffee with Bill on Thursday. This lack of emotional commitment leads to less physical temptation. Less temptation leads to less compromise. I have no idea how women are supposed to guard their hearts while in an exclusive relationship with the purpose of marriage.
More Interaction – I know many homeschool girls who are frustrated that they never get asked out on a date. It is not uncommon to find a 21 year old stay at home daughter who has never been asked out on a date. The reason for this is not because the girl is unattractive (although that may be the story she convinces herself of over time).
The real reason is that few guys are willing to ask permission from a woman’s father to marry her before being able to ask her out on a date to get to know her. Even when this permission is requested, it is unlikely to be given.
I know several godly, hardworking and attractive homeschool guys who have been rejected by as many as a dozen fathers. I respect their tenacity. Getting turned down by courtship fathers is tough on guys because the fathers are rarely gentle or kind. So if you are a courtship-minded girl wondering why the guys are not calling, you may want to ask your dad how many guys he has run off.
With Traditional Dating, asking a girl out on a date is no big deal. All the guy is asking to do is to get to know the girl better. Maybe this leads to a deeper relationship, maybe it doesn’t. Either way, the interaction is easier and more fun when it is not so intense.
Less Heartbreak – One of the promises of courtship is that it can lead to less heartbreak than dating. I laugh at this to keep myself from crying. This could not be further from the truth. Calling off a courtship can be as emotionally wrenching as calling off an engagement. It can take years to recover from a “failed courtship.” Also let’s not also forget the emotional cost for girls of not being asked out year after year and the emotional cost for guys of being rejected by father after father.
More Marriage – Let’s face it, most married people got married because they dated first. I would even submit that most homeschoolers who do get married supplemented with dating at some point in their journey. Courtship is not resulting in many marriages despite having been advocated by (sometimes unmarried) conservative leaders for nearly 20 years.
More Fun – The institution of marriage is crumbling. Of the last two generations, one won’t get married and the other won’t stay married. A smaller percentage of people are married in America than at any other time. Part of what helps perpetuate the institution of marriage is making the process of getting married fun. My grandmother made dating in her day sound really fun. Courtship on the other hand can be awkward and emotionally heartwrenching.
Dating also trains people to continue dating their spouse after they get married. It is important for married couples to be able to have fun with each other. The kind of parents who are the strongest advocates of courtship are often the ones who go on the fewest dates with each other.
More Matchmaking – Modern Courtship doesn’t really have a mechanism for matchmaking. How can there be blind dates if the man must first get permission from a father? Courtship relationships are so intense that even introductions can be awkward. I know many happily married couples who met through a blind date or an online matchmaking service like eHarmony. Matchmaking is a time-tested practice that Traditional Dating is fully compatible with. Courtship? Not so much.
More League Awareness – Not everyone has the same level of attractiveness, character, intelligence and wealth. Parents tend to see their own children through rose-colored glasses. Homeschool communities can be a bit like Lake Wobegon where all the children are above average. It is easy for “no guy to be good enough for daddy’s little princess”. The sad result of enforcing this mindset is a daughter who becomes a spinster. With traditional dating guys learn their league by finding out what girls say “yes” to that second date. Girls learn their league by seeing what kind of guys ask them out.
Responding to Common Questions & Objections to Traditional Dating
Why Not Just Spend Time in Groups?
If you talk with advocates of modern courtship they speak highly of single people spending time in groups. Group settings reduce the intensity, commitment and exclusivity and thus protect the hearts of single people.
The problem with group settings is that not all personality types open up in group settings. Many married couples include one spouse who is more comfortable in group settings than the other. These couples may have never found each other if they were limited to “group dating.”
In group activities, it can be hard for the wallflowers to be discovered for the flowers that they really are. They need a less intense 1-on-1 setting in which to bloom. Group settings are particularly rough on women who grew up in communities where they were trained to value submissiveness, meekness and quietness.
The other challenge with group settings is that they are logistically complex. The more people you add to the group, the harder coordination becomes. Where is a stay-at-home daughter who attends a small family integrated church supposed to find groups of young people to hang out with? The result of limiting interaction to group settings is many lonely nights interacting with no one.
But Isn’t Courtship Biblical?
When applying Scripture, particularly the Old Testament, to our lives, it is important to differentiate between Biblical precedent, principle and precept. Just because Jacob had two wives and a seven-year engagement does not mean that God wants all men to have two wives and seven-year engagements.
What we have in the Old Testament is a lot of precedent: each story is different from the last.
For precedents we have:
- the woman as the protagonist in the romance (Ruth & Boaz)
- the man as the protagonist in the romance (Jacob & Rachel)
- the romance arranged by a third party (Isaac & Rebekah)
- the woman entering the man’s harem (David & Abigail, Micah, Bathsheba etc.)
There are some good Scriptural precepts about sexual purity in the New Testament, and there are some principles about the benefits of marrying young and that sort of thing.
But the Bible is surprisingly quiet when it comes to laying out a system of courtship. Courtship Systems are cultural, and the Bible rarely advocates one cultural approach over another. God’s heart is that every tribe and tongue come worship him without having to surrender their food, language or other cultural distinctives in the process.
Most of the moral arguments for courtship are actually arguments for arranged marriage. The arguments for the strong involvement of parents fit arranged marriage much better than they fit courtship.
When I started PracticalCourtship.com, one of my goals was to never use the site to criticize arranged marriage. In countries like India, that have both arranged marriages and “love marriages,” the arranged marriages have the lower divorce rate. Arranged marriage has been used by many cultures for many years with good results.
The problem is that arranged marriage is not a good fit for western culture. Many Americans value individual liberty more than life itself. Giving this most important decision to someone else is not something many of us are comfortable with. Also, parents are often hesitant to arrange marriages lest their child resent them if the marriage turns out to be an unhappy one.
I don’t see Arranged Marriage taking off in Western Culture.
We need a system to help young people make good decisions. Fortunately, we have one: Traditional Dating.
Traditional Dating fits our culture like a glove. Most of Americans already intuitively know how it works because it is part of who we are as a people. If you don’t know how it works, ask your grandparents and they will tell you of the glory days when men were free. Watch the twinkle in their eye when they tell you of a time when men and women could fall in love and pick their own spouses.
Hasn’t Our Sexualized Culture Ruined Dating?
There is no denying that the media is far more sexually charged than it was when my grandparents were dating in junior high. Now while some of that is the media following culture (The Beatles sang about hand holding while hippies swapped STDs in the 60s), I do believe that media affects the culture. The question is how do we best respond to that culture.
The commitment, exclusivity and intensity of dating is what lead to temptation and compromise in the first place. Courtship makes the problem worse by increasing the commitment which intensifies the temptation. The advocates of courtship know this, which is why chaperones are so critical to the system.
The other problem with courtship is that it often delays marriage. Courtship communities expect young people to live celibate lives in a sexually charged culture for a decade or more before they get married. The Bible instructs us to flee temptation and to marry lest you burn with lust. Courtship teaches instead to delay marriage until you are ready.
I recently heard a local pastor complaining about a rash of older 20 something women in his church who had given up on finding prince charming. They started making physical compromises in an effort to attract a man. Once they gave up on courtship they just grabbed whatever the world was offering.
The benefit of traditional dating is that the lack of exclusivity reduces temptation. It also helps young people find out who they are and who they are looking for faster. Early marriage reduces the number of years a young person must resist sexual temptation through celibacy.
Finally, I should say this: Where sin abounds, grace abounds more. I understand Grace to be the power of God to do the will of God. The power of God is greater than the power of our sexualized culture. There is nothing new under the sun and no new temptation that is not already common to man. This is not the first time Christians have lived in a sexualized culture.
If you study history, you will find that this actually happens often. In each of those generations God provided a way out. I believe that for our generation that way is Traditional Dating.
Now Let’s Talk Some Specifics
Suggestions For Single Women
If you are a single woman, realize that the reason guys are not asking you out is NOT because you are unattractive. It is because you live in a system where he must want to marry you before he can get to know you. It is the system that is broken, not you. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Somewhere out there is a guy who will see you as the most beautiful woman in the world. The more guys you meet, the faster you will find him.
- If a Christian guy asks you out for dinner, say “yes”. You don’t need to love him to say yes to a first date.
- Be friendly. Give the guy hope that he has a chance with you. Coyness is not as attractive as the media makes it out to be.
- Don’t make him run a gauntlet before he can get to know you. Realize he is not asking to marry you when he asks if he can buy you dinner.
- Some guys are hidden gems and are more than meets the eye. Give him a chance to win your attention and to earn that second date.
- If you are not interested in a guy, let him down gently. There is a way to give a firm “no” to a guy without making him feel like a worm.
- Don’t call in your dad to scare him off unless he won’t take the hint. Your dad and his shotgun should be the last resort.
- Let the guy pay for dinner.
Suggestions for Single Men
- Start asking girls out. Most girls would love to be asked out and will say “yes” if you would just ask them.
- Realize that asking a girl out for dinner is not the same as proposing marriage.
- If she says you need to talk to her dad first, take the “no” for what it is and move on to the next woman. For a better explanation of this point see 7 Reasons I Recommend Avoiding Dragon Guarded Women.
- If you have been browbeaten by harsh courtship fathers, I feel your pain. Ask God to heal your heart and to give you the courage to try again. The tide is shifting. The leaders that those men used to justify their actions are quickly fading into the past. We are entering a kinder, gentler age. Who knows. Maybe the next girl you ask out could be the one.
- Get a job. Money makes you more attractive.
- Pay for dinner.
Suggestions for Both Single Men and Single Women
- Do what your grandparents did and go out on dates with lots of different people before going steady with any of them.
- Don’t marry the first person you have feelings for.
- Keep an eye out for public places where you can have private conversations.
- Find a church with lots of single people. There are still churches out there with a healthy culture of traditional dating. If no one in your church got married last year, don’t expect to break that trend. You can always move back to your parent’s church after you find your sweetheart.
- Have fun.
- Fear God.
Suggestions For Parents
- Try to make marriage attractive to your children by loving and respecting your spouse the best you can. One reason that your children may not be getting married is because they don’t want what you have in your marriage.
- Start dating your spouse again. Do whatever you can to make your marriage a happy one.
- Encourage your sons to ask girls out on dates.
- Allow your daughters to say yes to first dates from Christian guys you don’t know.
- As your children become adults, give advice instead of commands. Being a parent does not make you a Pope for another adult.
- The gentler you are in giving advice, the more it will be sought.
- Take a step back and trust God to guide your child directly.
- Pray earnestly and persistently for your child.
- Encourage your children to find their way to places where they can meet other single people.
- Don’t force your daughters to stay at home. Let them get out into the world where they can meet godly men. If you want to catch a fish you must first walk to the pond.
- Remember that gentleness and kindness are fruits of the Spirit.
- Treat the person interested in your child as a fellow brother or sister in Christ.
How to Talk With Your Folks About Courtship
Share this post with your parents and talk to with them about why courtship is flawed and why you are going to start going out on dates.
The older you are, the easier this conversation will be. I find that even the most controlling parents start to mellow out as their single daughters start entering their 30s. That biological clock waits for no man, even Prince Charming. It will help when their friends start bragging about their grandchildren.
Listen to them as they share the mistakes they made while dating. Listen to their story of how they fell in love. Just remember that every romance is different and your story will be different. Just because your parents got divorced or live in an unhappy marriage does not doom you to their fate.
Realize that many of their rules were created out of fear. They are afraid that you will suffer the same way they did when they were your age.
Don’t forget that they love you. Explain to them that you all want the same thing: for you to be happily married.
Explain that courtship is not helping you become happily married. Courtship leads to singleness more often than it leads to marriage.
If all else fails, play the grandchildren card. Most parents want grandchildren. Try to explain that if they want grandchildren you need to get married and courtship is not helping you do that.
Where do we go from here?
Share this post with your community on Facebook and Google+ to continue the conversation. My hope is that as single people start embracing traditional dating we can restore the fun first date to our culture. The more people who read this post the more guys that will start asking girls out and the more girls who will say “yes” to that first date.
Tweetables:
- The Greatest Generation was encouraged to date and discouraged from going steady in middle school. (Click to Tweet)
- The courtship movement eliminated dating and replaced it with nothing. (Click to Tweet)
- The only tangible difference between an engagement and a courtship is the ring and the date. (Click to Tweet)
- A commitment to courtship is often a commitment to lifelong singleness. (Click to Tweet)
- Most of the moral arguments for courtship are actually arguments for arranged marriage. (Click to Tweet)
- Being a parent does not make you a Pope for another adult. (Click to Tweet)
- The benefit of traditional dating is that the lack of exclusivity reduces temptation. (Click to Tweet)
- When applying Scripture, it is important to differentiate between precedent, principle and precept. (Click to Tweet)
What do you think?
If I have learned one thing running PracticalCourtship.com, it is that courtship is very controversial. Even the definition of the word sparks a debate. That is fine. I am happy to see your thoughts and opinions in the comments. A few requests for the comments:
- Keep the conversation civil. No name calling. Just because you were hurt in the past is no excuse to hurt others in the future.
- Keep the conversation humble. Bragging about how this is not a problem in your family is not very helpful.
- Please read the follow up article before posting comments. I may have already addressed your question in the Q&A post.
- I reserve the right to delete comments. It is not censorship to take your comment off of my personal blog. Remember you can say whatever you want about me or this post on your own blog or Facebook page.
If you think that this post should be expanded into a book to respond to some of the concerns posted below, click here, to get book updates.
This post has turned into a book!
Thank you to everyone who backed Courtship in Crisis on Kickstarter. You can now find the book on Amazon.
I do appreciate your thought that was put in this article. However, I disagree with somethings written therein. First off, and correct this if I’m wrong but I understand that you are saying that the divorce rate for those who have married after courting is higher than those who date around, which you base this on examples that you have seen in your life. We have to remember that in order to have a good solid representative data that supports a point you need to go beyond some examples you have seen in your life. What does the divorce rate look like nationally? We can’t make statements like “courtship is fundamentally flawed” using anecdotal evidence, this is inaccurate.
Secondly, yes, courtships can work under the right attitude and discipline. I courted my soon to be wife before I asked her to marry me. (not that we are a perfect but this is an example) This being the case when we first started courting I asked her if she would be my girl friend for the purpose of seeing IF we are compatible to be married, not SO we can get married. When you court some one you are just as free to stop courting when you learn that it isn’t working out. How do you balance this with the idea of dating? Well, no matter who you are you should reach out and make friends. No one is telling you need to get to know people to see if you are compatible. High school is a time to JUST GO AND MAKE FRIENDS. If you have the discipline you don’t need to be in a relationship and you don’t need to be friends with the opposite sex in order to see if you are compatible.
So no, court ship is not fundamentally flawed, in fact it is beautiful and maybe there are variations of it but please be more prepared to make such a statement because you’ll find that many disagree.
Wow….refreshing to read your post. Thank you Oscar!
So what you’re saying is “Your anecdotal evidence is flawed because it is anecdotal. Now please listen to my anecdotal evidence.”
Well slap me in the face. Can’t find any problem with that line of argumentation.
“If you have the discipline you don’t need to be in a relationship and you don’t need to be friends with the opposite sex in order to see if you are compatible. ”
O_o
um…
wat?
So… as long as I’m “disciplined” I don’t need to get to know a girl in order to find out if we would make a good marriage?
Can’t argue with that. Because literally I have no idea what to say right now.
So what you’re saying is “Your anecdotal evidence is flawed because it is anecdotal. Now please listen to my anecdotal evidence.”
Dear Lord David the Terrible,
In regards to anecdotal evidence, what I am saying is that anecdotal evidence is insufficient to make a claim like “courtship is fundamentally flawed”, and I stand by that. The purpose of my example, what you call anecdotal evidence, is to show that not all relationships that are based on traditional courting are bound for failure, and most importantly, to show that in a traditional courting relationship you don’t have to be stuck in thinking that you have to marry this person: you have the option to marry that person. My example shows that if two people court they can make it clear from the onset that you both want to find out if you are compatible for marriage and that our courting is not an obligation to marriage. You lessening the pressure from the beginning.
I said “If you have the discipline you don’t need to be in a relationship and you don’t need to be friends with the opposite sex in order to see if you are compatible. ”
Ok, I can see why I could clear this up a little more. My point is: you don’t have to be in a relationship, you can just be friends with others of the opposite sex without the pressure of trying to see if you should be in a relationship with that person. This requires discipline. There is a time to just go out and make friends. I hope that makes more sense.
Lastly, on another note. Lord David the Terrible, I don’t appreciate your insulting and down right demeaning response to what I have commented. I respect that fact that you may disagree but there is no need to be insulting. If you want to engage in more dialogue (as much as you can online) please be respect and humble, like Jesus. Every body is equal here, so please honor that. If I have come off as disrespectful in anyway please call me out on it as I am to you.
Thank you,
Oscar
Trying to distinguish between an “example” and “anecdotal evidence” is (in the interests of using a less insulting word) amusing.
No one is making the claim that all courtship relationships will end in failure. No one can make that claim. Nor should they. That’s not the stance of the OP and it shouldn’t be the stance of anyone who is experienced in analytical analysis. The question is if courtship is fundamentally flawed. Which we can discuss by analyzing primarily it’s definition and attributes. Which is not based on anecdotal evidence. Or even scientific evidence (though both of those can be marginally helpful.)
Your definition of being “just friends” is the same as the OP’s definition of “traditional dating.” So I think you may have more in common with the OP than you think. Both of you seem to be promoting the idea that too much commitment and exclusivity too soon can be destructive and sew the seeds for temptation.
Every person may be equal. But not every person’s opinions are equal. On the internet there are no people. We are only the cybernetic personifications of the beliefs of our operators in this the battle field of ideas. If you wish to talk as people then meet in person. But upon this medium it is only ideas and worldviews that exist. We are only the words we type. There is no flesh, no humanity online. Only truth, lies and all that lies in between.
Sorry. That sounded weird. I probably need to get out more.
As an almost 60 year old who has been married since 1979, the dating he describes is what we did informally BEFORE we entered a time of courtship with the one we intended to marry.
I really was interested by this post. Really gave something to think about. However, I think a guy should WANT to ask my dad before me. If he has the guts and thought I was worth the risk of doing something that can be kind of scary, I would feel totally honored.
I agree Dianna. I would also feel honored by having a guy go to my father for me. This post gave a lot to think about. I actually wrote a “response” to it on my blog maidarise.blogspot.com called “Courtship Defended” if you would like to have something to read that is on the “other side” of the issue.
What scary thing does the girl have to do to prove her love to the guy? Seems like the guy is doing all the proving here. Seems one sided to me. Should a girl have to ask a guy’s mom if she can court him?
Or at least go slay a dragon or something. Dragon slaying chicks are hot.
Yeah I agree with that. I think that it should be done not just to prove his love for the girl but also out of respect for her and her father. It’s a huge honor!
What if the guy doesn’t love the girl yet? What if he’s just trying to decide if loves her and wants to get to know her first?
And what does the girl have to do to prove her love to the guy? Does she need to ask the guy’s Mom? or what? At least have a consistent bad philosophy.
Lord God gave all people a free will, whether to submit to Him or not. We are supposed to follow the Lord’s example. I realize that in other times/cultures situations may be different, but this is the US culture in 2014.
I have 2 sons (grown) and 1 daughter (soon to be 18). I have always met the “date” that my sons and daughter wanted to go out with. When my children were under 16 they did not date nor did they have a “boyfriend, girlfriend”. They were too young in my estimation. However, they always had friends of the opposite sex, had boy-girl parties, went out to the movies/dinner/etc. with others, sometimes in a group, sometimes not. I guess that would be dating.
I taught my children (when they were children) to love and obey Lord Jesus and make their decisions as if He were beside them. Then I left them to make those decisions and trusted them and trusted God to protect their souls. We have to eventually you know.
Maybe I am the only grandmother who has read and responded to this article, but I believe that many of you think that you are Lord God. We cannot control our children, no matter how hard we try. God allows us to make our own decisions, how can we do less?
The reason I am the person I am now is because of the good and bad decisions I made along the way. We will always make poor decisions and have to live with the consequences but that makes us better people and more able to serve our Lord.
Understand that even if you are a parent who is most wise, you are not God. You do not know whether your decisions are good or poor. That you must someday relinquish control of your daughters (after all, someday you will pass away and she will be left trying to go on without you). Also remember that Lord God warns us not to anger our children, you will lose them.
Teens, remember your parents love you and only want what is best for you. Sometimes that’s hard. It’s hard to give up control because we don’t want you to hurt as we have. We need to learn to see and treat you as adults. Be patient with us. Honor us. Respect us. Help us see you as mature decision makers.
Adult Children, remember you need to answer to Lord God. You need to respect and honor your parents. But you also must prepare yourselves for life with or without a spouse.
Each family will find the answer that is best for them if they listen to Lord God’s council. Open your minds and your hearts.
Think about the distant future of your children.
Stop worrying about whether they marry and let them worry about that as adults. After all, not everyone will marry.
If you are wondering, one of my son’s has a great wife and two, almost three, children. The other is not doing so well. My daughter is nearly an adult and is dating and I approve of all the young men she has gone out with. I, myself, dated and married. I have been a single mom and am now happily married and have been for over twenty years.
I believe in dating because I believe that the people involved should have a chance to get to know each other privately without any expectations and I believe that is how teens learn how to deal with others. However, I do not think that sex has any place in the dating experience.
I agree with you completely. Something needs to be fixed in the courtship movement. I still think the general principles of respect and integrity are valuable lessons, but perhaps the principle can be used in a dating framework to create a via media (or “middle way”). I guess that would be “Christian dating”… But, thank you so much for writing this article, it put on paper what I was starting to think about courtship. Keep up the good work.
I disagreed with almost everything in this post against courtship. I have written a “response” to this post on my blog: maidarise.blogspot.com in order to defend courtship and the biblical principles that were attacked in this post. For those of you interested in hearing “the other side” please see my posts:
Courtship Defended Part I
Courtship Defended Part II
Courtship Defended Part III
Need to post the urls. The lines aren’t linked for me.
I can definitely go along (enthusiastically) with the “playing the field” concept of dating. Where we part ways, conceptually, is at the assumption that anyone who enjoys the company of the opposite sex on dates has marriage as an ultimate goal–or SHOULD. There are those who are content to see whether it happens to them, who need to be pursued and won. There are also those who are, quite simply, called by God to the single state in life. Going on dates with several different people rather than “going steady” is a very good way, as you point out, to avoid…well, not necessarily TEMPTATION, which is more or less always with us, but certainly giving in to it. If your book were so constructed as to consider the possibility that some people may stay single for a lifetime, and that that is no less valuable an option than choosing to marry, I believe it would be a more valuable book than one that proceeded on the assumption that everyone is, or SHOULD be, seeking to marry.
I do appreciate some of your insights although, I think you are overreacting and naive. I dated a lot and that did nothing for my knowing what I wanted in a husband only made me think singleness wasn’t a bad idea. My heart was so guarded it took me a long time to really love my husband well, which was a pity because he passed away.
I do not know anyone who had courted and divorced, so I am curious as to that statement. Most of the people (85%) I know who courted are married. The ones who didn’t figured out during the “get to know you time” of courtship if they were not compatible and they are not hiding at home. Engagement is the “I know I want to marry you” time.
Most of the people I know who play the field are not married and are not virgins and some have babies. I also know many girls who had no qualms about being a Ruth and letting the guy know she was interested. I am a little confused by where you are getting that info? I don’t think courtship prevents all divorce, because sinners are involved. I always find it interesting when it is all or nothing, can’t things look different for different people.
This article is extremely naive about the human heart and how it works for both men and women, the way God designed it. Guys ask girls out because they LIKE them and girls say yes because they LIKE them, I don’t know how you start a new formula on a casual heart that can serial date without becoming callous. It doesn’t usually take long (even a first date) to think, “hey, I really like him/her.” You know what happens to the brain? The same area lights up as a crazy person hence the term “madly in love,” that obsessive thinking about them all the time thing. You actually can’t stay there and have to move on to that more solid kind of marriage love or you will be a controlling stalker type. So when that crazy love shows up it is like an addiction, except of course for the people the writer knows that go out with people they don’t really like and are sort of monk-like. But for the others add some brain chemicals and its kinda like telling any addict, brother or sister in Christ, sorry you are on your own I hope it goes well. Even old people have trouble being good and we think these young will do be fine all alone. We walk with one another in love. I do believe in self control it is a fruit of the Spirit, but unfortunately the Spirit is willing but the flesh is weak and that is why God made us part of a family and body of Christ to encourage daily.
I know there are extreme versions of everything and your speed dating version sounds like fun(if fun is the only goal) but it misses the point that I do believe God intended for marriage. I am not sure of your example of David and Bethseba etc… are you thinking polygamy/harem style for these young people? What I am thinking, there would be no case for dating in the Bible. I am sure it appeases the world that hates when Christians to do something that calls their practices into question, they would have us be as careless as they. When we are like them it is easy on us as well isn’t it? Makes you wonder about heart motivation.
My daughter and son in-law thank me for courtship style dating, they don’t regret having help and it was hard to do for us all but good things usually are.
I hope you have not carelessly reacted to something that is good because you had some sort of expectations or extreme views that were not met and became disillusioned because they were expectations that were not yours to have. Do we stop teaching our children about knowing Jesus and the truth of the Word because sometimes they don’t believe? I hope not. Life is messy and people are messy there is no perfect scenarios. I pray we all seek the only wise God for His opinion for ultimately ours does not matter, His does and I think He gave us a whole book on them. It is by His grace that we do what we do to His glory not ours. So how do we love and glorify Him with every bit of ourselves and love others more then ourselves?
I’ve been a pastor/marriage and family counselor for 36 years. I had my first formal date in 4th grade and went out with 50 different girls before graduating high school. My wife and I have been married for 40 years, have a weekly date night and are best friends. Your article was very well thought out and clearly written. KUDOS to you for stepping out with such important advice!!
I came here fully prepared to disagree. I read Joshua Harris’ books and was very influenced by them while my husband and I were . . . dating, or courting. I would have said we were courting, I suppose, but it sounds so old-fashioned. First kiss at the altar, all that.
But as I read I realized that we had a sort of hybrid dating-courtship relationship, as compared to the “pure courtship” you describe. We met online, and we didn’t adhere to the “parental permission first” aspect of courtship. We were in our mid-twenties, and I had already had enough of traditional dating to last me for the rest of my life. It worked for us. We went on lots of dates, though there was also a lot of family presence as we were dating because I had to stay with his parents when I drove to visit, and he had to stay with mine when he visited me.
No one set of rules will work for everyone, I think. The important thing is to maintain a focus on purity.
Wow, there are so many reasons why this ARTICLE is fundamentally flawed. You set up a straw man that you could easily knock over. Not everyone practices courtship the way you describe. You gave only anecdotal evidence of why it doesn’t work. You said marriages worked for the greatest generation because of dating… but could it be that marriages worked because people of that generation have a greater respect for commitment and more traditional values? Marriages also lasted longer in previous generations when there was no dating. You said dating around would guard your heart. Ha! It only takes one good date with someone you like to feel like you’re falling in love. You said courtship delayed marriage, but many courtship-pro people advocate early marriage.
Is courtship perfect? No, we live in a fallen world. But the way I’ve heard it described and practiced, and the way my husband and I practiced it 13 years ago, it makes the most sense for the Christian who is trying to honor God and love others. We didn’t have a set of rules… we had convictions about purity and saved our first kiss, but we weren’t chaperoned all the time. If your father is an ungodly man, maybe getting permission from him is not going to work. But fathers who love God and love their daughters are going to try to do what’s best for them. I certainly can’t imagine my husband rejecting a young man interested in our daughter capriciously… we will surely pray fervently about it.
And you CAN know what type of person you want to marry without dating around. Do you think people of Jane Austen’s time didn’t know what kind of person they wanted to marry because they hadn’t dated them? No, they got to know people in social settings. We still do this today… we make friends. We learn to look for character qualities. We ask ourselves, “Would this person make a good husband or wife?” rather than, “Would this person be fun to hang out with at Chili’s?” When I was dating as a freshman in college, I would say yes to just about any guy because I was only thinking of the latter question. It didn’t lead to good things.
Now, one thing I think you did get right is that there’s a lot of pressure for courtship to always end in marriage. So it’s a big decision to even say yes to courtship. I think we need to remind each other that courtship IS different from engagement… that it’s a time when we are supposed to get to know one another and be praying about whether this should lead to marriage. I think Joshua Harris’ follow-up book, “Boy Meets Girl,” does a great job of exploring courtship and it would be a good read for anyone considering the topic.
by all means, please provide an alternate definition to courtship and explain why your definition is more accurate to what people actually do than the OP’s definition.
Because the definition of courtship is totally nailed down and established without ANY disagreement as to it’s definition.
So you’re arguing “The reason marriage worked for the greatest generation is because of all these things the greatest generation did. How dare you say that marriage worked because of dating, which is a thing the greatest generation did.”
I’d argue against this point. But I think you’ve done a good enough job of that yourself.
you’re using Jane Austin books as an accurate depiction of life for the majority of people in the victorian era?
firstly since when is the Victorian era a example to be emulated, secondly, what rich British people did may not be what the rest of people did. And thirdly, claiming that men and women never spend time alone together would require a huge body of evidence which I doubt you are willing to provide.
so you’re saying dating is wrong because it causes you to get to know people in social settings and the solution that you propose is to get to know people in social settings?
Are you trolling? You seem like you’re trolling.
I don’t think I had a courtship as an ideal, but definitely an idea that I wanted to marry the first guy I dated. I married the second guy I dated and we are still married ten years on. I was honeschooled, but wasn’t encouraged to courtship or anything so daunting as that. I don’t think the divorce rate is high due to courtship nor due to lack of courtship, but lack of commitment. Marriage is hard even with someone you love and peoples interests change over time, but as a committed party you need to decide to be interested in new interests. That’s part of being loving. If marriages were more selfless they would last.
Interesting thoughts thankyou.
You raise some valid points, but I’m not really ready to embrace either idea, whether courtship or dating, fully. Parents should not abdicate their roles, relying on their children’s developing relationship with God. After all, the Bible shows the wisdom of trusting advisors. However, neither should parents try to control their children. This is a subject that, like most, must be covered with prayer!
Your comment: “The benefit of traditional dating is that the lack of exclusivity reduces temptation” is wrong. Traditional dating in today’s environment encourages promiscuity with multiple partners. This article proceeds from a naive perspective of today’s culture.
While the goal of reducing intensity is desireable, the way to achieve it is to reduce exposure to intensely emotional settings. Non-exclusive “dating” may be one way, but then again going out in groups or with chaperones isn’t as bad as it sounds ( unless the chaperone insists on sitting at the table and being party to every conversation.
Guys should know that fathers care about their daughters and daughters need to know their fathers are willing to do whatever is needed to protect their hearts. There is a middle ground that seems unexplored in this article: one where the child chooses to ask permission and the parent readily agrees provided there are sound boundaries. After all, let’s not pretend the world is as safe a place as it was 50 or 70 years ago.
Why exactly should a 30 year old man or woman have to ask their parents for permission to go out on a date? One cannot “choose to ask permission.” If permission is something that is required you cannot choose to have it required. It’s either required or it isn’t.
One other thing to realize is that a lot of people that promote courtship (either intentionally or not) employ what is called a “false diemma.”
Basically they pain a picture of dating being so terrible and dangerous and indicate that the only possible alternative is courtship. They don’t give an alternative like dating with integrity etc.
It would be like saying:
– There is so much problem with guns that the only option is to take away guns from eveyrone.
– There is so much trouble with teen driving that we should raise the age to like 18 or 21.
Paint a picture claiming how bad (all) dating is and then say the ony option is courtship.
Thomas,
Thank you for your article. My credentials: I am in a courtship relationship presently with my boyfriend, Dan =).
Initially, when I read the title of the article, I did not think I would agree with your article if I read it. But to tell you the truth, I have had many discussions with different women who are married right now that they believe the present conceptions people have of courtship are flawed. I think one of the biggest issues that females are facing today is the lack of friendship between males and females. I have gone out on plenty of dates with guy friends, with absolutely no intention of making the relationship serious beyond the simple date. This gives myself and the guy the ability to form a relationship built upon friendship. What is my parent’s role? Previously, in high school, my parents were extremely strict in monitoring my relationship with guys and in the end, both myself and the guy I was interested in, were hurt, confused, and now we are estranged.
Fortunately, God used the situation for His greater glory, and now my best friend, Dan, is my boyfriend and we are happily courting each other. I find it very comical and ironic because I used to argue with Dan throughout high school (yes, we went to high school together), that dating was different than courting. He told me that he would never court because it was absolutely ridiculous. Now, he agrees with me because he has ‘dated’ (the present definition of dating) several girls throughout his lifetime and made some mistakes in the past because of it. But he now realizes that what he is doing with me is a completely different experience and he is going into it with a different mindset.
After I was hurt from the previous guy, I felt my parents had also hurt me because they were overbearing. This closed off my relationship with them. They noticed the change and began treating me as an adult with feelings, with a desire to make relationships, and to prove that I was worthy of their trust. This allowed me to go out on fun little dates with different guys, maybe it was a meal or a walk. This did not mean that I had any intention of marrying them or vice versa, but because I had the freedom to build relationships apart from my parents ultra-supervision, Dan and I were able to discuss the future of our friendship. Even though we are courting, he is still my best friend. And I hope that every girl/woman who begins a courtship with a guy, always trusts him and sees him as a good friend she trusts, a brother in Christ who will encourage her, and that she is willing to do the same. Depending on the couple and the situation, parental advice is preferred, but sometimes seeking advice from other godly couples or friends is also wise. The key is not that one receives advice, it is the attitude with which the couple accepts it, but also sifts through it, and understanding what advice may be a help or a hinder in the relationship.
But another point is that divorce is a lack of faith for God to help/intervene. It takes humility, understanding, and weeding out the root issues. I hope that every couple understands that marriage is hard, it is extremely difficult, and there are going to be issues great and small that they have to work through, that I will have to work through, but I want God to be foremost glorified in the end with whatever decision me and Dan make together.
Sincerely,
Sister in Christ
I can’t seem to find my comment….
I can only find response to my comment if I make a new one… weird.. please disregard this post!
I really appreciate the points you have brought up. I read this intending to disagree, but find we need to take time to think long and hard about courtship and how we will approach this with our kids. One thought or question I have is, at our church we have a large amount of eligible, beautiful, godly women waiting around for men. This is a normal non courtship church. Where is the flaw in the dating? I have my opinion but wondered about God thoughts.
Excellent! I did some thing right with my sons. I also did a ton of stuff wrong! I wish I had read this when they were young. I’m sending it off to them today. They are intelligent, savvy, sensitive, married men. One has 7 children (22yrs old -4yrs old), and one has 1 little girl (age 6yrs). I really liked what you had to say! Thanks!
I am inclined to think an understanding of other is far more important than a style of dating or courtship. I am a man in my mid-sixties and grew up in the baby boomer culture that embraced a philosophy that whatever was meaningful or felt good was more important than traditional concepts of right and wrong. My generation saw parents battling away but for the most part staying together for tradition or children and the general college aged youth at that time simply did not want to do it that way. The train wreck our generation became has been blamed on a lack of discipline (Benjamin Spock), by the conservative, the hypocrisy of the traditionalist, by the liberal thinker, and in my own mind on a lack of truth or knowledge or in fact true spirituality. I am convinced the human is a magnificent thinking creative machine of sorts created in the image of his Creator. Therefor the problem is his heart and not so much his methods. When I married in 1986 I married a beautiful woman who proved to be not only attractive but extremely intelligent. I think her greatest weakness was her taste in men and that was my saving point, but I was completely unprepared to be a good husband. I don’t think she was prepared to be a goods wife, although I must say she was and is a great person. But we spoke a different language and it took years to begin to understand that difference. A good source is Ephesians 5:25-33.
You had me until “league awareness.” What a hideous and ignorant idea.
yeah. All people are the same and anyone can marry anyone with no problems. league’s? That’s just tyrannical misogynistic patriarchy. Heck, why do we even need to put any effort into choosing a spouse? Since we’re all the same we might as well get married randomly.
This article is the most interesting I have read on Courtship vs dating. My husband and I have been married for 25 years with 4 children and we have a great relationship. I would say courtship was successful for us. Our parents were quite involved in the whole process. We were young – 19 and 20 – and the accountability was good for us, albeit hard. You have given us both a lot to think about. Our children are now dating age and we have homeschooled for the majority of their school years. We think you have some valid points and appreciate you sharing them.
Thank you so much ! I am a homeschool mom . My girls are 14 ,12 and 8 . Our current youth leader really pushes “courting” and I have never agreed with it . I made my daughter read this article because I wanted her to see why I did not agree. It not my job to plan out their lives it is to guide them for what God has in store . That may mean that they remain single . Too many homeschool families put such a high priority on getting their children married . We need to raise them to be independent and allow them the freedom to make choices . I do not allow them to “date” yet . However I will implement this rule when the time comes .
I absolutely agree with this article. Have fun getting to know people without it being about sex. I believe you covered every argument. I have observed what you are saying to be truth. Great article! Thanks for doing the research.