Author’s Note: This blog post has been expanded and clarified in my book Courtship in Crisis.
I grew up as a member of the homeschool community back when we were hiding from the cops and getting our textbooks from public school dumpsters. When I was a teenager, my friends started reading this new book called I Kissed Dating Goodbye. For months we could talk of little else. After reading it myself, I grew into as big an opponent of dating as you could find. Dating was evil and Courtship, whatever it was, was godly, good and Biblical.
My grandparents would often ask why I wasn’t dating in high school. I explained what courtship was and quoted Joshua Harris, chapter and verse. Their response surprised me.
“I don’t think courtship is a smart idea,” my grandfather said.
“How can you tell who you want to marry if you aren’t going out on dates?” my grandmother wondered every time the topic came up. I tried to convince them but to no avail. They both obstinately held to the position that courtship was a foolish idea.
Well, what did they know? They were public schooled. I ignored their advice on relationships, preferring to listen to the young people around me who were passionate advocates of courtship.
As I grew older, I started to speak at homeschool conferences and events. I talked with homeschool parents, students and alumni all over the country and started to see some challenges with making courtship work.
Some of the specific challenges I identified were:
- Identification (Finding that other person)
- Interaction (Spending time with the other person)
- Initiation (Starting the relationship)
So I founded PracticalCourtship.com. Its purpose: to instigate a national conversation about how to make courtship more practical. Visits and comments poured in from all over the country about how to make courtship work and why it did not work.
Each year I waited for courtship to start working and for my homeschool friends to start getting married. It never happened. Most of them are still single. Some have grown bitter and jaded. Then couples who did get married through courtship started getting divorced. I’m talking the kind of couples who first kissed at their wedding were filing for divorce.
This was not the deal!
The deal was that if we put up with the rules and awkwardness of courtship now we could avoid the pain of divorce later. The whole point of courtship was to have a happy marriage, not a high divorce rate.
So I humbled myself and took my grandmother out for dinner to hear why she thought courtship was a bad idea all those years ago. She had predicted the failure of courtship back in the 90s and I wanted to understand how and why.
Now let me define what I mean by “courtship”.
So what is courtship anyway?
After 20 years there still is no general consensus as to what courtship is. But here are the elements most conservative communities have in common:
- The man must ask the woman’s father’s permission before pursuing the woman romantically.
- High accountability (chaperones, monitored correspondence, etc).
- Rules about physical contact and purity. (The specific rules vary from community to community).
- The purpose of the courtship is marriage
- High relational intentionality and intensity
- High parental involvement. Fathers typically hold a “permission and control” role rather than the traditional “advice and blessing” role held by their fathers.
The Case for Traditional Dating
My grandmother grew up in a marginally Christian community. People went to church on Sunday, but that was the extent of their religious activity. They were not the Bible-reading, small-grouping, mission-tripping Christian young people common in evangelical churches today.
And yet her community of friends all got married and then stayed married for decades and decades. So what on earth were they doing that worked so well? Over dinner, my grandmother shared her story about what dating was like back in the 30s and 40s.
When my grandmother dated in middle school (yes, middle school) her parents had one primary rule for her.
The Primary Dating Rule: Don’t go out with the same guy twice in a row.
So if she went out for soda with Bob on Tuesday, she had to go to a movie with Bill on Thursday before she could go to the school dance with Bob on Saturday.
That sounded crazy to me. So, I asked her the rationale behind it. She explained that the lack of exclusivity helped them guard their hearts and kept things from getting too serious too quickly. The lack of exclusivity kept the interactions fun and casual. “The guys wouldn’t even want to kiss you!” She said.
The lack of exclusivity helped the girls guard their hearts and kept the boys from feeling entitled to the girl. How could a boy have a claim to her time, heart or body if she was going out with someone else later that week?
She went on to explain that by the time she graduated from high school, she had gone out on dates with over 20 different guys. This meant that by the time she was 17 years old she knew which Bob she wanted to marry. They got married and stayed married till my grandfather passed away half a century later.
“If I had only gone out with 3 or 4 guys I wouldn’t have known what I wanted in a husband,” she said.
It is not that her parents were uninvolved; it is that they played an advisory role, particularly as she entered high school and they relaxed the rules about not going steady.
The Difference Between “Dating” and “Going Steady”
She went on to explain that there used to be a linguistic differentiation between “dating” and “going steady”. “Going steady” meant you were going out with the same person multiple times in a row. It often had symbols like the girl wearing the guy’s letter jacket. This telegraphed to everyone at school that she was “off the market” and that she had a “steady beau”.
It seems that my great grandparents’ rule forbidding my grandmother from going out with the same guy twice in a row was a common rule in those days.
The Greatest Generation was encouraged to date and discouraged from going steady while in middle school.
This is different from my generation, which is encouraged to “wait until you are ready to get married” before pursuing a romantic relationship. This advice, when combined with the fact that “the purpose of courtship is marriage”, makes asking a girl out for dinner the emotional equivalent of asking for her hand in marriage.
I am not convinced that anyone is ever truly ready to get married. Readiness can become a carrot on a stick, an ideal that can never be achieved. Marriage will always be a bit like jumping into a pool of cold water. A humble realization that you are not ready and in need of God’s help may be the more healthy way to start a marriage.
As the decades moved on, our language and behavior changed. We stopped using the phrase “going steady” and changed “dating” to mean “going steady”. For example, we would now say “John and Sarah have been dating for 3 months.” when the Greatest Generation would have said “John and Sarah have been going steady for 3 months.”
We then started using new pejoratives like “dating around” and “playing the field” to describe what used to just be called “dating”. Each decade added more exclusivity, intensity, and commitment to dating and saw a subsequent rise in temptation and promiscuity.
It is easier to justify promiscuity when you are exclusively committed to just one person, even if that commitment is only a week old.
In the late 80s and early 90s this promiscuous culture reached its peak. People would “go steady” for just a few weeks and then move on to the next relationship. It was this “hookup and breakup” culture that the founders of courtship were reacting to.
But their proposed solution involved adding even more commitment, exclusivity and intensity, the very things that lead to the problem in the first place. This is why courtship is fundamentally flawed.
The courtship movement eliminated dating and replaced it with nothing.
Or, put another way, they replaced dating with engagement. The only tangible difference between an engagement and a courtship is the ring and the date.
Similarities between Courtship & Engagement:
- They both require the permission of the father.
- They both are intended for marriage.
- They are not “broken up” but are instead “called off”.
- When they are called off there is an inevitable rending of a community as one of the couple no longer feel comfortable spending time with the community of their ex-future spouse.
Young people are expected to jump from interacting with each other in groups straight into “pseudo-engagement”. This is a jump very few are prepared to make. The result is that a commitment to courtship is often a commitment to lifelong singleness.
Why the Courtship Divorce Rate is So High
Recently I have seen a spike in divorces amongst couples who courted. I have a few theories as to why this is. Young people whose parents often maintain veto power on all of their decisions are then expected to make this most important decision without any experience in good decision making. They have no context of who they are, past decision making or an idea of what they are looking for in a spouse.
How can you know what personality you fit well with if you only go out with one other person? The result can be a mismatched couple and a marriage that is difficult to sustain.
Right now all we have little research to go on in terms of the courtship divorce rate. In my observations, some homeschool communities have a much higher divorce rate than others. I would be very interested in seeing some research on this phenomenon. This blog post is my call for more research on the divorce rate amongst couples who “courted” before getting married.
Advantages of Traditional Dating
Less Temptation – It is hard to fall in love with Bob on Tuesday when you know you are going out for coffee with Bill on Thursday. This lack of emotional commitment leads to less physical temptation. Less temptation leads to less compromise. I have no idea how women are supposed to guard their hearts while in an exclusive relationship with the purpose of marriage.
More Interaction – I know many homeschool girls who are frustrated that they never get asked out on a date. It is not uncommon to find a 21 year old stay at home daughter who has never been asked out on a date. The reason for this is not because the girl is unattractive (although that may be the story she convinces herself of over time).
The real reason is that few guys are willing to ask permission from a woman’s father to marry her before being able to ask her out on a date to get to know her. Even when this permission is requested, it is unlikely to be given.
I know several godly, hardworking and attractive homeschool guys who have been rejected by as many as a dozen fathers. I respect their tenacity. Getting turned down by courtship fathers is tough on guys because the fathers are rarely gentle or kind. So if you are a courtship-minded girl wondering why the guys are not calling, you may want to ask your dad how many guys he has run off.
With Traditional Dating, asking a girl out on a date is no big deal. All the guy is asking to do is to get to know the girl better. Maybe this leads to a deeper relationship, maybe it doesn’t. Either way, the interaction is easier and more fun when it is not so intense.
Less Heartbreak – One of the promises of courtship is that it can lead to less heartbreak than dating. I laugh at this to keep myself from crying. This could not be further from the truth. Calling off a courtship can be as emotionally wrenching as calling off an engagement. It can take years to recover from a “failed courtship.” Also let’s not also forget the emotional cost for girls of not being asked out year after year and the emotional cost for guys of being rejected by father after father.
More Marriage – Let’s face it, most married people got married because they dated first. I would even submit that most homeschoolers who do get married supplemented with dating at some point in their journey. Courtship is not resulting in many marriages despite having been advocated by (sometimes unmarried) conservative leaders for nearly 20 years.
More Fun – The institution of marriage is crumbling. Of the last two generations, one won’t get married and the other won’t stay married. A smaller percentage of people are married in America than at any other time. Part of what helps perpetuate the institution of marriage is making the process of getting married fun. My grandmother made dating in her day sound really fun. Courtship on the other hand can be awkward and emotionally heartwrenching.
Dating also trains people to continue dating their spouse after they get married. It is important for married couples to be able to have fun with each other. The kind of parents who are the strongest advocates of courtship are often the ones who go on the fewest dates with each other.
More Matchmaking – Modern Courtship doesn’t really have a mechanism for matchmaking. How can there be blind dates if the man must first get permission from a father? Courtship relationships are so intense that even introductions can be awkward. I know many happily married couples who met through a blind date or an online matchmaking service like eHarmony. Matchmaking is a time-tested practice that Traditional Dating is fully compatible with. Courtship? Not so much.
More League Awareness – Not everyone has the same level of attractiveness, character, intelligence and wealth. Parents tend to see their own children through rose-colored glasses. Homeschool communities can be a bit like Lake Wobegon where all the children are above average. It is easy for “no guy to be good enough for daddy’s little princess”. The sad result of enforcing this mindset is a daughter who becomes a spinster. With traditional dating guys learn their league by finding out what girls say “yes” to that second date. Girls learn their league by seeing what kind of guys ask them out.
Responding to Common Questions & Objections to Traditional Dating
Why Not Just Spend Time in Groups?
If you talk with advocates of modern courtship they speak highly of single people spending time in groups. Group settings reduce the intensity, commitment and exclusivity and thus protect the hearts of single people.
The problem with group settings is that not all personality types open up in group settings. Many married couples include one spouse who is more comfortable in group settings than the other. These couples may have never found each other if they were limited to “group dating.”
In group activities, it can be hard for the wallflowers to be discovered for the flowers that they really are. They need a less intense 1-on-1 setting in which to bloom. Group settings are particularly rough on women who grew up in communities where they were trained to value submissiveness, meekness and quietness.
The other challenge with group settings is that they are logistically complex. The more people you add to the group, the harder coordination becomes. Where is a stay-at-home daughter who attends a small family integrated church supposed to find groups of young people to hang out with? The result of limiting interaction to group settings is many lonely nights interacting with no one.
But Isn’t Courtship Biblical?
When applying Scripture, particularly the Old Testament, to our lives, it is important to differentiate between Biblical precedent, principle and precept. Just because Jacob had two wives and a seven-year engagement does not mean that God wants all men to have two wives and seven-year engagements.
What we have in the Old Testament is a lot of precedent: each story is different from the last.
For precedents we have:
- the woman as the protagonist in the romance (Ruth & Boaz)
- the man as the protagonist in the romance (Jacob & Rachel)
- the romance arranged by a third party (Isaac & Rebekah)
- the woman entering the man’s harem (David & Abigail, Micah, Bathsheba etc.)
There are some good Scriptural precepts about sexual purity in the New Testament, and there are some principles about the benefits of marrying young and that sort of thing.
But the Bible is surprisingly quiet when it comes to laying out a system of courtship. Courtship Systems are cultural, and the Bible rarely advocates one cultural approach over another. God’s heart is that every tribe and tongue come worship him without having to surrender their food, language or other cultural distinctives in the process.
Most of the moral arguments for courtship are actually arguments for arranged marriage. The arguments for the strong involvement of parents fit arranged marriage much better than they fit courtship.
When I started PracticalCourtship.com, one of my goals was to never use the site to criticize arranged marriage. In countries like India, that have both arranged marriages and “love marriages,” the arranged marriages have the lower divorce rate. Arranged marriage has been used by many cultures for many years with good results.
The problem is that arranged marriage is not a good fit for western culture. Many Americans value individual liberty more than life itself. Giving this most important decision to someone else is not something many of us are comfortable with. Also, parents are often hesitant to arrange marriages lest their child resent them if the marriage turns out to be an unhappy one.
I don’t see Arranged Marriage taking off in Western Culture.
We need a system to help young people make good decisions. Fortunately, we have one: Traditional Dating.
Traditional Dating fits our culture like a glove. Most of Americans already intuitively know how it works because it is part of who we are as a people. If you don’t know how it works, ask your grandparents and they will tell you of the glory days when men were free. Watch the twinkle in their eye when they tell you of a time when men and women could fall in love and pick their own spouses.
Hasn’t Our Sexualized Culture Ruined Dating?
There is no denying that the media is far more sexually charged than it was when my grandparents were dating in junior high. Now while some of that is the media following culture (The Beatles sang about hand holding while hippies swapped STDs in the 60s), I do believe that media affects the culture. The question is how do we best respond to that culture.
The commitment, exclusivity and intensity of dating is what lead to temptation and compromise in the first place. Courtship makes the problem worse by increasing the commitment which intensifies the temptation. The advocates of courtship know this, which is why chaperones are so critical to the system.
The other problem with courtship is that it often delays marriage. Courtship communities expect young people to live celibate lives in a sexually charged culture for a decade or more before they get married. The Bible instructs us to flee temptation and to marry lest you burn with lust. Courtship teaches instead to delay marriage until you are ready.
I recently heard a local pastor complaining about a rash of older 20 something women in his church who had given up on finding prince charming. They started making physical compromises in an effort to attract a man. Once they gave up on courtship they just grabbed whatever the world was offering.
The benefit of traditional dating is that the lack of exclusivity reduces temptation. It also helps young people find out who they are and who they are looking for faster. Early marriage reduces the number of years a young person must resist sexual temptation through celibacy.
Finally, I should say this: Where sin abounds, grace abounds more. I understand Grace to be the power of God to do the will of God. The power of God is greater than the power of our sexualized culture. There is nothing new under the sun and no new temptation that is not already common to man. This is not the first time Christians have lived in a sexualized culture.
If you study history, you will find that this actually happens often. In each of those generations God provided a way out. I believe that for our generation that way is Traditional Dating.
Now Let’s Talk Some Specifics
Suggestions For Single Women
If you are a single woman, realize that the reason guys are not asking you out is NOT because you are unattractive. It is because you live in a system where he must want to marry you before he can get to know you. It is the system that is broken, not you. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Somewhere out there is a guy who will see you as the most beautiful woman in the world. The more guys you meet, the faster you will find him.
- If a Christian guy asks you out for dinner, say “yes”. You don’t need to love him to say yes to a first date.
- Be friendly. Give the guy hope that he has a chance with you. Coyness is not as attractive as the media makes it out to be.
- Don’t make him run a gauntlet before he can get to know you. Realize he is not asking to marry you when he asks if he can buy you dinner.
- Some guys are hidden gems and are more than meets the eye. Give him a chance to win your attention and to earn that second date.
- If you are not interested in a guy, let him down gently. There is a way to give a firm “no” to a guy without making him feel like a worm.
- Don’t call in your dad to scare him off unless he won’t take the hint. Your dad and his shotgun should be the last resort.
- Let the guy pay for dinner.
Suggestions for Single Men
- Start asking girls out. Most girls would love to be asked out and will say “yes” if you would just ask them.
- Realize that asking a girl out for dinner is not the same as proposing marriage.
- If she says you need to talk to her dad first, take the “no” for what it is and move on to the next woman. For a better explanation of this point see 7 Reasons I Recommend Avoiding Dragon Guarded Women.
- If you have been browbeaten by harsh courtship fathers, I feel your pain. Ask God to heal your heart and to give you the courage to try again. The tide is shifting. The leaders that those men used to justify their actions are quickly fading into the past. We are entering a kinder, gentler age. Who knows. Maybe the next girl you ask out could be the one.
- Get a job. Money makes you more attractive.
- Pay for dinner.
Suggestions for Both Single Men and Single Women
- Do what your grandparents did and go out on dates with lots of different people before going steady with any of them.
- Don’t marry the first person you have feelings for.
- Keep an eye out for public places where you can have private conversations.
- Find a church with lots of single people. There are still churches out there with a healthy culture of traditional dating. If no one in your church got married last year, don’t expect to break that trend. You can always move back to your parent’s church after you find your sweetheart.
- Have fun.
- Fear God.
Suggestions For Parents
- Try to make marriage attractive to your children by loving and respecting your spouse the best you can. One reason that your children may not be getting married is because they don’t want what you have in your marriage.
- Start dating your spouse again. Do whatever you can to make your marriage a happy one.
- Encourage your sons to ask girls out on dates.
- Allow your daughters to say yes to first dates from Christian guys you don’t know.
- As your children become adults, give advice instead of commands. Being a parent does not make you a Pope for another adult.
- The gentler you are in giving advice, the more it will be sought.
- Take a step back and trust God to guide your child directly.
- Pray earnestly and persistently for your child.
- Encourage your children to find their way to places where they can meet other single people.
- Don’t force your daughters to stay at home. Let them get out into the world where they can meet godly men. If you want to catch a fish you must first walk to the pond.
- Remember that gentleness and kindness are fruits of the Spirit.
- Treat the person interested in your child as a fellow brother or sister in Christ.
How to Talk With Your Folks About Courtship
Share this post with your parents and talk to with them about why courtship is flawed and why you are going to start going out on dates.
The older you are, the easier this conversation will be. I find that even the most controlling parents start to mellow out as their single daughters start entering their 30s. That biological clock waits for no man, even Prince Charming. It will help when their friends start bragging about their grandchildren.
Listen to them as they share the mistakes they made while dating. Listen to their story of how they fell in love. Just remember that every romance is different and your story will be different. Just because your parents got divorced or live in an unhappy marriage does not doom you to their fate.
Realize that many of their rules were created out of fear. They are afraid that you will suffer the same way they did when they were your age.
Don’t forget that they love you. Explain to them that you all want the same thing: for you to be happily married.
Explain that courtship is not helping you become happily married. Courtship leads to singleness more often than it leads to marriage.
If all else fails, play the grandchildren card. Most parents want grandchildren. Try to explain that if they want grandchildren you need to get married and courtship is not helping you do that.
Where do we go from here?
Share this post with your community on Facebook and Google+ to continue the conversation. My hope is that as single people start embracing traditional dating we can restore the fun first date to our culture. The more people who read this post the more guys that will start asking girls out and the more girls who will say “yes” to that first date.
Tweetables:
- The Greatest Generation was encouraged to date and discouraged from going steady in middle school. (Click to Tweet)
- The courtship movement eliminated dating and replaced it with nothing. (Click to Tweet)
- The only tangible difference between an engagement and a courtship is the ring and the date. (Click to Tweet)
- A commitment to courtship is often a commitment to lifelong singleness. (Click to Tweet)
- Most of the moral arguments for courtship are actually arguments for arranged marriage. (Click to Tweet)
- Being a parent does not make you a Pope for another adult. (Click to Tweet)
- The benefit of traditional dating is that the lack of exclusivity reduces temptation. (Click to Tweet)
- When applying Scripture, it is important to differentiate between precedent, principle and precept. (Click to Tweet)
What do you think?
If I have learned one thing running PracticalCourtship.com, it is that courtship is very controversial. Even the definition of the word sparks a debate. That is fine. I am happy to see your thoughts and opinions in the comments. A few requests for the comments:
- Keep the conversation civil. No name calling. Just because you were hurt in the past is no excuse to hurt others in the future.
- Keep the conversation humble. Bragging about how this is not a problem in your family is not very helpful.
- Please read the follow up article before posting comments. I may have already addressed your question in the Q&A post.
- I reserve the right to delete comments. It is not censorship to take your comment off of my personal blog. Remember you can say whatever you want about me or this post on your own blog or Facebook page.
If you think that this post should be expanded into a book to respond to some of the concerns posted below, click here, to get book updates.
This post has turned into a book!
Thank you to everyone who backed Courtship in Crisis on Kickstarter. You can now find the book on Amazon.
After being married to the same man for almost 22 years alot of what I’ve reed in your artical
is on the mark with our experience. Going out first with youth group. Then with a few friend then on dates alone to restaurents, walking, shopping. Then friends and family outtings. To get to know who where the family and friends if we came to wed. Spoke about everything we liked and disliked. Since then, alot of our likes and dislikes have changed we have matured both. Also never stayed alone in the house so no temptation to fall and didn’t fall but would of if stayed alone in house. Keep that special blessing after wedding. When you learn to open and share with the one you feel and know it’s the right one. It’s much more simple when once married to say what you have to. We still plan dates and have fun together. He makes me laugh and still looks at me like a little kid in a candy store. I love my man. He’s an awesome dad to our two childrens. One thing to remember no compromises. I got engaged before and called if off. I couldn’t imagine living with the way his mother treated everyone and didn’t want our children if I got married to him, the way she would talk them down and treat them. Stood up and called it off. It broke his heart but better then instead of a divorce later with heart and life broken children. Wellcould almost write a book on it so will stop here. Thank you for reading to the end. Be blessed♡
It’s sad that you even think divorce would be an option.
Good morning Thomas – wow what a great post I found this on one of our young peoples Facebook and saw it was written by you. I could not be in more agreement with you. I have contented this for some time and have grandchildren who are living this out. Do write a book on this and get the word out. We are wondering can I post some of this on our blog? We have lots of young kids in YWAM and otherwise that need this information. Let me know if we can do this Love your thoughts. LeeAnn Rawlins
Very well written and throught through. Thank you for your time, and I encourage a book. We have 2 children, 18 and 20, and though we never jumped on the courtship bandwagon many of their friends and acquaintances were tossing the idea around. Even their grandmother (a baby boomer) got my daugher a book on courtship and how it is preferable and more “Christian” than dating. Your blog post clearly lays out your experience and thought out reasons why the concept of courtship is flawed and gives young people something they can send to their friend to read or the words to explain why they don’t agree with the concept being touted as the best way to find the perfect relationship. A book on this subject is certainly needed.
Oh how I love this article. Common sense and caring = reality. I was a 70’s child. I dated many, kissed many. I grew up, and married the guy that I could build a life with, after looking around A LOT 🙂 I would have NEVER chosen him if he was the first, second, or even third guy I dated. We are loving, committed Christians, first to Jesus, then to each other. Did it start this way? Absolutely not. How old were we when we married?Here it comes… 19 and 20 years old. Will it work for everyone? Of course not.
Did we want our kids to ‘date’? Not until they were 16, and they assumed ‘dating’ meant to have a ‘steady’, which I didn’t realize until this article! I wanted them to date around in high school while we were still an influence on them. Did every thing go perfectly? No, some heartbreak occurred. Are they still Christians today? Yes, and amazingly so, all 3 are married to faithful Christians! Does God get all the credit, and I receive buckets of grace? Yes!
My daughter told me when she was at (a private Christian) college if someone dated around, they were a slut, or a player. Not many girls wanted that label, and if the guys did, they attracted a certain type of girl. So, we’ve developed this double standard (what else is new?) for our beloved children, a standard no one can navigate without harm.
Which brings me to the flip side. Not many guys ask girls on a date these days because of the unspoken rules, so the guys just ask the girls to ‘hang out’, until they get to know them better. Many girls hate this, because they never get asked out on dates! These courtship rules are mainly set up to ‘protect’ the girls, (and give power to parents) but guys will find a way to protect themselves.
Thanks for the sanity of this article. I have several friends who are receiving a copy of this 🙂
Not every father who would like to meet a guy who wants to ask out his daughter is a control freak. Some just want to get to know the guy a little. (Some guys actually are great at hiding horrible characters…the daughter might not pick up on that. The dad might not, either, but there’s less chance the dad is wearing rose-colored glasses about the guy.) Many dads just want to provide godly counsel to their daughters (and sons, for that matter), not control their every move. I think some people don’t like to receive input from anyone that might disagree with them. That’s sad, since input from other people can be so valuable, especially if our own viewpoints are biased by a person’s superficial characteristics. I’m not saying that courtship is the way to go. We don’t practice that. However, we do like to meet the people that are interested in our children (both sons and daughters). Again, we sometimes see things that they, in their possibly romantic hazes, don’t.
I totally agree. I want the guys to know that I care enough about my daughter to have a review process and an interest in what she’s doing and with whom. See my post below.
I disagree. Kiss Dating goodbye. The purpose for dating is marriage. The purpose for courtship is marriage. Marriage is for the long term. Americans are probably the only culture that dates. Most cultures have a version of courtship involving family because that should be the goal – having a family- adding a family to your present family so courtship supports that while dating creates individuals and families of individuals that don’t support each other from birth to death. Go for the bigger vision. Group activity should find you a mate. Better yet when you aren’t looking someone is looking at your character and lining you up with what’s on their list. Sometimes when what’s on your list doesn’t line up with who ever shows up. Tells you can’t judge a cutie by it’s cover. Listen to mom and dad. That’s God’s system. Grandparents had their chance. And the best grandparent supports parents. Or grandparents should support you and parent you. At least that’s what my dad says. Most grandparents aren’t willing to do that.
I like the helpful info you supply to your articles. I’ll bookmark your blog and test again right here regularly. I am relatively sure I’ll be informed lots of new stuff proper here! Good luck for the next!
My husband dated and ended up divorced. After 12 years of praying for a wife, no dating (My Sweetheart just didn’t see anyone even when they were right in front of him) and helping plant small churches, my dad introduced the two of us. And then my dad left it at that. He did not push me. But he prayed and made sure we were going places I could meet guys. Six months later I asked if we could stay at my future husband’s house while attending a conference in that city. So my dad called him up and asked. We had friendly conversation, sometimes disagreement, all in a family context which made things more relaxed. Four days later he called and asked to court me. Dad let him know a couple days later that was fine. And then Dad gave me the relationship.
When we married 10 months later, my husband was 43 with a daughter. I was 29. He is a dream to be married to. Everyone knows we are blessed. Our marriage-seeking relationship was not about courtship or dating. It was about discerning if marriage was right, talking about the things that mattered and for me, looking for the fruit of the Spirit in him. He had it and that is what makes the difference.
I can definitely feel where this article is coming from because I was home schooled and yes, I did read the Joshua Harris books. And yes, I married the first man I dated…and I was 20 years old when I went on that first date (this was also the first time I was asked on a date). I never comment on blogs so this will be a new experience, but I want to share some of the things I experienced as I ended up doing some sort of funny cross between courting and dating. When I grew up I was not romantically interested in boys, I was a tomboy who loved physics and piano and karate. I was home schooled till grade 12 ( I spent a year and a bit in the local public high school). I had a lot of friends who were guys, and a lot of the activities were male dominated, and this continued when I went to university. As a result I spent A LOT of time with boys. And I think being able to be friends with a lot of guys, without committing to dating (by which I mean “going-steady”) meant I learned over time what things annoyed me and what personality types I found more attractive. So I was in the dating = precursor to marriage camp, but I was not in camp with the super controlling parents (which I am eternally thankful for, my parents are awesome!). So I was able to get out and explore the world and travel, and experience university life to the fullest, and because at that point I wasn’t exclusive with anyone, I was free to go out and have fun, dance, and workout with whoever and just have a good time. I am fascinated by the old school dating because I think it is a really interesting concept. I am skeptical that it would work nowadays because of the expectations surrounding dating today (i.e. dating = going steady), but I have modern relationship stage which I have experienced and I think comes the closest to this old style: “Not -dating”. I married one of my best guys friends from my childhood (we went to sunday school together). We shared a lot of common interests when we were younger: karate, music, neither of us were in the popular crowd in our youth group. He was a super introvert and it was really hard to truly get to know him in a group setting. And of course I wouldn’t have dated him in high school anyways cause I wasn’t ready to get married. However I realize now we spent a lot of time “not-dating”. We did a lot of activities together (these were often in a small-group or public setting but did later on allow for private conversations to occur) such as, karate, youth band and church canoe trips). I left for school, but his older brother and his wife went to the same university so I ended up still seeing a fair bit of him. We continued to chat over fb/skype as he was going to school a ways away. I point to this year as our “not dating” period as neither of us had an understanding of being exclusive (I was still hanging out regularly with other guy friends), there were no expectations of each other, though we had definitely both privately thought of each other in a romantic light, we had not voiced these thoughts because we didn’t want to start dating yet because for us that meant: you will marry this person, and we wanted to be sure! After a few months of having longer and longer conversations and spending more and more time talking to each other, we both realized we wanted to eventually get married. At that point he asked my dad for permission and we started “dating”/”going-steady” (note that my parents had been really open and encouraging with us up to this point they encouraged us to set physical boundaries for our relationship prior to marriage, but they left it completely up to us what those boundaries would be and how we would manage stuff). After a year of dating he asked me to marry him. We haven’t been married that long (two years today) but it has been a blast! We have soo much fun together, and we knew this would be the case cause we were allowed the time to get to know each other outside of the whole “going-steady” scenario. I know not everyone meets their soul-mate when they are 7. And to spin this as advise to go back and look for your soul mate among your childhood friends would be nothing short of ridiculous. But to sum what I am saying is: don’t be too quick knock homeschooling and involved parents cause there are some great one’s out there! Agreeing with the author that the current dating system, and the old-school courting model don’t seem to work. And does anyone else have positive “not-dating” experiences? Does anyone think this is closer to the oldschool not-two-dates in a row scenario? Is there another name for this stage other than “not-dating”?
Thanks for writing this article on this very important topic. Good discussion on a subject that is often ignored. Figuring out the problems of the present by reflecting on the past is an excellent way to preserve the future.
A few thoughts:
-It’s interesting that the author goes back to the Greatest Generation for dating advice even though it was that generation that raised their children in such away that caused the sexual revolution of the 60’s. That said, advice from the “experienced”, from those who have seen a couple generations flounder in sexuality/marriage is important but it should be vetted and grounded in Biblical thought. If not, the result will swing to the opposite extreme just like we have just seen.
-It would be interesting to see statistic’s on sexuality within the church: how many divorced Christian couples had premarital sex, how many youth raised in the church had premarital sex and are now divorced, how many divorced are of those so-called “courting” couples, how many dated and are still married, how many courted and are still married, what percentage were involved in “non-sex sexual acts”, the effects of masturbation and the lack of desiring to date/court/”go-out”, and the effects of pornography by both users and non-users in the early stages of a relationship.
-It would also be interesting to see how a book like “I kissed dating goodbye” was allowed into the church, who spoke against it and who spoke for it, and what was their rationale was for both sides of the argument. With those results, perhaps it would be possible to find other books & philosophies that the church has allowed into the mainstream that has also had similar results. That said, I don’t think “I kissed dating goodbye” or the whole dating philosophies of dating/courtship is the only reason why there are so many singles in the church or that the divorce rate is as high as it is. Marriages born out of both philosophies have lasted, so it’s not that one way is the only way: Both philosophies have successes and failures. Let’s learn from the failures.
-Hearing such topics on sexuality, divorce, and marriage from the pulpit is rare. I understand that the audience comes from a wide range of experiences and backgrounds including those who are divorced and those who are presently involved sexually outside of marriage so the pastors might be afraid to speak on the topic but pastors should still be able to find a way to preach the truth of sexuality and marriage in love. Ironically, the audience comes from a wide range of experiences and backgrounds that includes people who have become saved since becoming divorced or being involved in various sexual acts and they are searching for what the Bible says about these topics. The church body is struggling with the subject of Biblical sexuality and yet it seems that the pulpits are silent. I emphasize the pulpit and not the blogs or books (for which there are many), but preaching from a trained man of God during the main time that the pastor is preaching to the congregation. And I emphasize “trained man of God”: The last thing we need is someone’s opinions or untrained thoughts. What, you think a trained man of God doesn’t know a thing or two about sex with his wife?
-Last point: God designed sex(!) and marriage. God designed men and women with certain strengths and weakness and with certain desires and needs. Dare I say that God, as revealed by the Bible, designed the human body for sex (He created the plumbing and the various systems needed to make it all work). It’s too bad we don’t following the operating instructions.
Hi, I really like your ideas and think I would have been much better off to date lots of guys before settling down with just one. However, only ONE guy asked me out in high school, and I said yes and had one horrible embarrassing date with him (very immature guy). He did NOT earn a second date. Then in college, only ONE guy asked me out and kept asking. If I had waited for a second guy to ask, I’d still be waiting, I think! I was a friendly girl but shy around guys (no brothers to learn with) and somewhat attractive but not pretty. I did my best but it was difficult! And then that relationship went on to marriage (I didn’t want to marry him but there was no one else, so I ‘settled’ for him). Divorce followed two years later, sadly (and he was a minister!). Now I’m married again, to a good Christian man, have been married over 30 years. We are both imperfect but have similar likes and get along great. My hope is that your book will help future young people to avoid the PAIN I went through to get where I am now, in a happy relationship at last.
I grew up in a Christian home and attended a Christian school. We had what I would call a blend of traditional dating and courtship. In high school, we could date whomever would say yes but we were encouraged to ask for parental permission as a sign of respect, both for the girl we were asking and for her parents. I fully intend on requiring the same of those boys who seek to date my daughter, who is presently 13, not so I can have veto power but so I can emphasize to both her and the boys that I care about her and about the people she chooses to spend time with and that there is, at least, a measure of accountability, honesty, and integrity expected. I also plan on taking her on her first date to provide an example of how she should expect to be treated when she’s taken out on a date.
For you to suggest to the guys to automatically skip any girl who says to ask her father is a disservice, in my opinion, unless you’re directing your recommendations to the 18 and older crowd, which you did not specify.
I really appreciated this article. I think strict courtship poses numerous problems in a western culture. One challenge I would pose is the consideration that a boy should move on if the girl says the parents want to meet him before a date occurs. The Lord allowed me to be a youth pastor for 15 years. During those years I saw the rate of date rape sky rocket to 1 in 10. I also had to counsel teens who had really good hearts but had no understanding of boundaries. This led them to situations where they had sex on dates because they weren’t adequately coached before they entered dating. I think the stereo type of the father with the shotgun is of course one that father’s should not seek to emulate. However, a father who wants to kindly look into the eyes of a boy who cares to date his daughter seems much more wise than it is flawed. I met my wife in college so it was a little different for us. I remember first meeting the people who became my future and current in-laws. Within 15 minutes of arriving at their house we were dressed in shorts and playing basketball at a gym. They wanted to meet me, but they built relationship. This step allowed them to be comfortable with who their daughter was dating and me to comfortable with them. Again, I greatly appreciate the article and feel it makes many excellent and freeing points. Thank you to the author and to participants in the conversation.
My wife and I practiced something approaching courtship. We did this in our adulthood, and so we modified it a bit, since certain aspects didn’t quite work for full-grown adults. (I was in my mid/late 30s and she in her mid/late 20s.)
We met by being introduced by someone who knew us both and decided to match us together. Just a mutual friend.
We did go out on two traditional dates to get to know each other. The first was a group date where we went out with two other couples and a single person.
The second date was when I invited her to a church activity to go to.
Because we were older when we met, it was easier for us to recognize the potential for compatibility in each other. We both had some baggage from traditional dating in our past, so when I explained the idea of courting rather than dating … less time alone, having others present when we spent time together, etc. … it held appeal for both of us.
The aspect of courtship we set aside was parental oversight. It makes sense for young people, if they have a healthy family. But both of us had come to a living belief in God but had either incomplete families (her father had died years before) or parents who were not believers and had their own issues that made them “not such wise consul.” I won’t go into details, but not everyone has “wise, Spirit-filled, believing parents to look to in their lives.
We did seek out mentors, to some extent, however; married couples we knew who were further down the road than us, who were just starting a courtship.
In practical terms, courtship and dating were not wildly different, other than while we were courting, one of us would always bring at least one friend along when we would spend time together, to reduce temptation.
We also made an effort to do a wide variety of activities together, so that we could get past the whole “putting on our best face” aspect and see each other’s real personalities.
After six months of courtship, we did decide to get engaged. Since we felt six months was not that long, we decided on a longer engagement where we continued courtship-style dating, but gradually eased up on the “must bring a friend along” requirement. We learned to trust ourselves around each other, as our personal commitment to God had been well-practiced by the time we’d been around each other for a period of time.
We kissed once, the night we got engaged, just a “one peck” type of kiss. The next time we kissed was at our wedding, which didn’t come until almost two years later.
For us, this modified style of courtship worked well because we met as older adults who had had dating experiences, broken hearts from failed relationships in the past, etc.
Would I recommend it for younger people, like today’s teenagers? Probably not, and here’s why: as older adults, we were less “new to relationships.” We’d had a background in dating and had matured our ideas of what makes a desirable spouse already.
To be honest, as a teen, I wouldn’t have been ready for it; it was too easy at that age to get distracted by a pretty face rather than seeking out more meaningful character qualities. I didn’t date too much until I hit college, and then did “dating” all wrong even when I did, in college. (I super-committed myself to pursuing one of the first college girlfriends I had, even long after it became painfully clear she didn’t even really like me that much. I was operating more on some weird, archaic idea that the “long-suffering pursuer will eventually win a woman’s heart if he pursue’s her long enough.”
As a result, I not only got my heart broken several times by the same young woman, but turned down opportunities to get to know and spend time with women who were far more kindly-disposed toward me, and who, even if they hadn’t been “the one,” would have provided both of us a set of more enjoyable dating experiences.
So, I mostly blame myself for how I messed up with traditional dating. But then, I didn’t even come to a saving faith until my freshman year in college, so I had had a rather unstable mix of cultural influences on me.
By the time I was introduced to my wife, I had stopped all dating for several years and pursued spiritual maturity for an extended length of time. I concentrated on being a better believer and a healthier person, before complicating my life with opening myself up to finding a relationship again. My wife had her own journey.
So, no, I think traditional dating as you describe it is likely a healthier model for younger people with good, healthy parents.
But does that mean courtship is worthless? No. It worked well for my wife and I, as we practiced it. Six months of courtship-dating and two years of engagement let to a marriage that’s lasted eight years and counting.
And we maintain a weekly date-night, even in the thinnest of financial times. Continuing to make special time each week for your significant other is invaluable.
You have made several good points. My 3 daughters (ages 19-28) don’t understand how I was able to go on dates with boys who weren’t and never became steady boyfriends. While my oldest is 7 years into a successful marriage (to her second boyfriend), all 3 committed themselves at a far too young age. My 22 year old has just gotten out of an abusive relationship that lasted 5 years. In spite of my efforts, they have been convinced that they must always be in a committed relationship.
Can girls ask guys out too?
Thank you for writing this, Thomas! For others who appreciated what he said, there’s a book I highly recommend called “Sex, Dating, and Relationships” that discusses the problems with courtship and modern dating in the light of the Gospel.
Thanks
I looove this! Soo good! Thank you for writing this! 🙂