Author’s Note: This blog post has been expanded and clarified in my book Courtship in Crisis.
I grew up as a member of the homeschool community back when we were hiding from the cops and getting our textbooks from public school dumpsters. When I was a teenager, my friends started reading this new book called I Kissed Dating Goodbye. For months we could talk of little else. After reading it myself, I grew into as big an opponent of dating as you could find. Dating was evil and Courtship, whatever it was, was godly, good and Biblical.
My grandparents would often ask why I wasn’t dating in high school. I explained what courtship was and quoted Joshua Harris, chapter and verse. Their response surprised me.
“I don’t think courtship is a smart idea,” my grandfather said.
“How can you tell who you want to marry if you aren’t going out on dates?” my grandmother wondered every time the topic came up. I tried to convince them but to no avail. They both obstinately held to the position that courtship was a foolish idea.
Well, what did they know? They were public schooled. I ignored their advice on relationships, preferring to listen to the young people around me who were passionate advocates of courtship.
As I grew older, I started to speak at homeschool conferences and events. I talked with homeschool parents, students and alumni all over the country and started to see some challenges with making courtship work.
Some of the specific challenges I identified were:
- Identification (Finding that other person)
- Interaction (Spending time with the other person)
- Initiation (Starting the relationship)
So I founded PracticalCourtship.com. Its purpose: to instigate a national conversation about how to make courtship more practical. Visits and comments poured in from all over the country about how to make courtship work and why it did not work.
Each year I waited for courtship to start working and for my homeschool friends to start getting married. It never happened. Most of them are still single. Some have grown bitter and jaded. Then couples who did get married through courtship started getting divorced. I’m talking the kind of couples who first kissed at their wedding were filing for divorce.
This was not the deal!
The deal was that if we put up with the rules and awkwardness of courtship now we could avoid the pain of divorce later. The whole point of courtship was to have a happy marriage, not a high divorce rate.
So I humbled myself and took my grandmother out for dinner to hear why she thought courtship was a bad idea all those years ago. She had predicted the failure of courtship back in the 90s and I wanted to understand how and why.
Now let me define what I mean by “courtship”.
So what is courtship anyway?
After 20 years there still is no general consensus as to what courtship is. But here are the elements most conservative communities have in common:
- The man must ask the woman’s father’s permission before pursuing the woman romantically.
- High accountability (chaperones, monitored correspondence, etc).
- Rules about physical contact and purity. (The specific rules vary from community to community).
- The purpose of the courtship is marriage
- High relational intentionality and intensity
- High parental involvement. Fathers typically hold a “permission and control” role rather than the traditional “advice and blessing” role held by their fathers.
The Case for Traditional Dating
My grandmother grew up in a marginally Christian community. People went to church on Sunday, but that was the extent of their religious activity. They were not the Bible-reading, small-grouping, mission-tripping Christian young people common in evangelical churches today.
And yet her community of friends all got married and then stayed married for decades and decades. So what on earth were they doing that worked so well? Over dinner, my grandmother shared her story about what dating was like back in the 30s and 40s.
When my grandmother dated in middle school (yes, middle school) her parents had one primary rule for her.
The Primary Dating Rule: Don’t go out with the same guy twice in a row.
So if she went out for soda with Bob on Tuesday, she had to go to a movie with Bill on Thursday before she could go to the school dance with Bob on Saturday.
That sounded crazy to me. So, I asked her the rationale behind it. She explained that the lack of exclusivity helped them guard their hearts and kept things from getting too serious too quickly. The lack of exclusivity kept the interactions fun and casual. “The guys wouldn’t even want to kiss you!” She said.
The lack of exclusivity helped the girls guard their hearts and kept the boys from feeling entitled to the girl. How could a boy have a claim to her time, heart or body if she was going out with someone else later that week?
She went on to explain that by the time she graduated from high school, she had gone out on dates with over 20 different guys. This meant that by the time she was 17 years old she knew which Bob she wanted to marry. They got married and stayed married till my grandfather passed away half a century later.
“If I had only gone out with 3 or 4 guys I wouldn’t have known what I wanted in a husband,” she said.
It is not that her parents were uninvolved; it is that they played an advisory role, particularly as she entered high school and they relaxed the rules about not going steady.
The Difference Between “Dating” and “Going Steady”
She went on to explain that there used to be a linguistic differentiation between “dating” and “going steady”. “Going steady” meant you were going out with the same person multiple times in a row. It often had symbols like the girl wearing the guy’s letter jacket. This telegraphed to everyone at school that she was “off the market” and that she had a “steady beau”.
It seems that my great grandparents’ rule forbidding my grandmother from going out with the same guy twice in a row was a common rule in those days.
The Greatest Generation was encouraged to date and discouraged from going steady while in middle school.
This is different from my generation, which is encouraged to “wait until you are ready to get married” before pursuing a romantic relationship. This advice, when combined with the fact that “the purpose of courtship is marriage”, makes asking a girl out for dinner the emotional equivalent of asking for her hand in marriage.
I am not convinced that anyone is ever truly ready to get married. Readiness can become a carrot on a stick, an ideal that can never be achieved. Marriage will always be a bit like jumping into a pool of cold water. A humble realization that you are not ready and in need of God’s help may be the more healthy way to start a marriage.
As the decades moved on, our language and behavior changed. We stopped using the phrase “going steady” and changed “dating” to mean “going steady”. For example, we would now say “John and Sarah have been dating for 3 months.” when the Greatest Generation would have said “John and Sarah have been going steady for 3 months.”
We then started using new pejoratives like “dating around” and “playing the field” to describe what used to just be called “dating”. Each decade added more exclusivity, intensity, and commitment to dating and saw a subsequent rise in temptation and promiscuity.
It is easier to justify promiscuity when you are exclusively committed to just one person, even if that commitment is only a week old.
In the late 80s and early 90s this promiscuous culture reached its peak. People would “go steady” for just a few weeks and then move on to the next relationship. It was this “hookup and breakup” culture that the founders of courtship were reacting to.
But their proposed solution involved adding even more commitment, exclusivity and intensity, the very things that lead to the problem in the first place. This is why courtship is fundamentally flawed.
The courtship movement eliminated dating and replaced it with nothing.
Or, put another way, they replaced dating with engagement. The only tangible difference between an engagement and a courtship is the ring and the date.
Similarities between Courtship & Engagement:
- They both require the permission of the father.
- They both are intended for marriage.
- They are not “broken up” but are instead “called off”.
- When they are called off there is an inevitable rending of a community as one of the couple no longer feel comfortable spending time with the community of their ex-future spouse.
Young people are expected to jump from interacting with each other in groups straight into “pseudo-engagement”. This is a jump very few are prepared to make. The result is that a commitment to courtship is often a commitment to lifelong singleness.
Why the Courtship Divorce Rate is So High
Recently I have seen a spike in divorces amongst couples who courted. I have a few theories as to why this is. Young people whose parents often maintain veto power on all of their decisions are then expected to make this most important decision without any experience in good decision making. They have no context of who they are, past decision making or an idea of what they are looking for in a spouse.
How can you know what personality you fit well with if you only go out with one other person? The result can be a mismatched couple and a marriage that is difficult to sustain.
Right now all we have little research to go on in terms of the courtship divorce rate. In my observations, some homeschool communities have a much higher divorce rate than others. I would be very interested in seeing some research on this phenomenon. This blog post is my call for more research on the divorce rate amongst couples who “courted” before getting married.
Advantages of Traditional Dating
Less Temptation – It is hard to fall in love with Bob on Tuesday when you know you are going out for coffee with Bill on Thursday. This lack of emotional commitment leads to less physical temptation. Less temptation leads to less compromise. I have no idea how women are supposed to guard their hearts while in an exclusive relationship with the purpose of marriage.
More Interaction – I know many homeschool girls who are frustrated that they never get asked out on a date. It is not uncommon to find a 21 year old stay at home daughter who has never been asked out on a date. The reason for this is not because the girl is unattractive (although that may be the story she convinces herself of over time).
The real reason is that few guys are willing to ask permission from a woman’s father to marry her before being able to ask her out on a date to get to know her. Even when this permission is requested, it is unlikely to be given.
I know several godly, hardworking and attractive homeschool guys who have been rejected by as many as a dozen fathers. I respect their tenacity. Getting turned down by courtship fathers is tough on guys because the fathers are rarely gentle or kind. So if you are a courtship-minded girl wondering why the guys are not calling, you may want to ask your dad how many guys he has run off.
With Traditional Dating, asking a girl out on a date is no big deal. All the guy is asking to do is to get to know the girl better. Maybe this leads to a deeper relationship, maybe it doesn’t. Either way, the interaction is easier and more fun when it is not so intense.
Less Heartbreak – One of the promises of courtship is that it can lead to less heartbreak than dating. I laugh at this to keep myself from crying. This could not be further from the truth. Calling off a courtship can be as emotionally wrenching as calling off an engagement. It can take years to recover from a “failed courtship.” Also let’s not also forget the emotional cost for girls of not being asked out year after year and the emotional cost for guys of being rejected by father after father.
More Marriage – Let’s face it, most married people got married because they dated first. I would even submit that most homeschoolers who do get married supplemented with dating at some point in their journey. Courtship is not resulting in many marriages despite having been advocated by (sometimes unmarried) conservative leaders for nearly 20 years.
More Fun – The institution of marriage is crumbling. Of the last two generations, one won’t get married and the other won’t stay married. A smaller percentage of people are married in America than at any other time. Part of what helps perpetuate the institution of marriage is making the process of getting married fun. My grandmother made dating in her day sound really fun. Courtship on the other hand can be awkward and emotionally heartwrenching.
Dating also trains people to continue dating their spouse after they get married. It is important for married couples to be able to have fun with each other. The kind of parents who are the strongest advocates of courtship are often the ones who go on the fewest dates with each other.
More Matchmaking – Modern Courtship doesn’t really have a mechanism for matchmaking. How can there be blind dates if the man must first get permission from a father? Courtship relationships are so intense that even introductions can be awkward. I know many happily married couples who met through a blind date or an online matchmaking service like eHarmony. Matchmaking is a time-tested practice that Traditional Dating is fully compatible with. Courtship? Not so much.
More League Awareness – Not everyone has the same level of attractiveness, character, intelligence and wealth. Parents tend to see their own children through rose-colored glasses. Homeschool communities can be a bit like Lake Wobegon where all the children are above average. It is easy for “no guy to be good enough for daddy’s little princess”. The sad result of enforcing this mindset is a daughter who becomes a spinster. With traditional dating guys learn their league by finding out what girls say “yes” to that second date. Girls learn their league by seeing what kind of guys ask them out.
Responding to Common Questions & Objections to Traditional Dating
Why Not Just Spend Time in Groups?
If you talk with advocates of modern courtship they speak highly of single people spending time in groups. Group settings reduce the intensity, commitment and exclusivity and thus protect the hearts of single people.
The problem with group settings is that not all personality types open up in group settings. Many married couples include one spouse who is more comfortable in group settings than the other. These couples may have never found each other if they were limited to “group dating.”
In group activities, it can be hard for the wallflowers to be discovered for the flowers that they really are. They need a less intense 1-on-1 setting in which to bloom. Group settings are particularly rough on women who grew up in communities where they were trained to value submissiveness, meekness and quietness.
The other challenge with group settings is that they are logistically complex. The more people you add to the group, the harder coordination becomes. Where is a stay-at-home daughter who attends a small family integrated church supposed to find groups of young people to hang out with? The result of limiting interaction to group settings is many lonely nights interacting with no one.
But Isn’t Courtship Biblical?
When applying Scripture, particularly the Old Testament, to our lives, it is important to differentiate between Biblical precedent, principle and precept. Just because Jacob had two wives and a seven-year engagement does not mean that God wants all men to have two wives and seven-year engagements.
What we have in the Old Testament is a lot of precedent: each story is different from the last.
For precedents we have:
- the woman as the protagonist in the romance (Ruth & Boaz)
- the man as the protagonist in the romance (Jacob & Rachel)
- the romance arranged by a third party (Isaac & Rebekah)
- the woman entering the man’s harem (David & Abigail, Micah, Bathsheba etc.)
There are some good Scriptural precepts about sexual purity in the New Testament, and there are some principles about the benefits of marrying young and that sort of thing.
But the Bible is surprisingly quiet when it comes to laying out a system of courtship. Courtship Systems are cultural, and the Bible rarely advocates one cultural approach over another. God’s heart is that every tribe and tongue come worship him without having to surrender their food, language or other cultural distinctives in the process.
Most of the moral arguments for courtship are actually arguments for arranged marriage. The arguments for the strong involvement of parents fit arranged marriage much better than they fit courtship.
When I started PracticalCourtship.com, one of my goals was to never use the site to criticize arranged marriage. In countries like India, that have both arranged marriages and “love marriages,” the arranged marriages have the lower divorce rate. Arranged marriage has been used by many cultures for many years with good results.
The problem is that arranged marriage is not a good fit for western culture. Many Americans value individual liberty more than life itself. Giving this most important decision to someone else is not something many of us are comfortable with. Also, parents are often hesitant to arrange marriages lest their child resent them if the marriage turns out to be an unhappy one.
I don’t see Arranged Marriage taking off in Western Culture.
We need a system to help young people make good decisions. Fortunately, we have one: Traditional Dating.
Traditional Dating fits our culture like a glove. Most of Americans already intuitively know how it works because it is part of who we are as a people. If you don’t know how it works, ask your grandparents and they will tell you of the glory days when men were free. Watch the twinkle in their eye when they tell you of a time when men and women could fall in love and pick their own spouses.
Hasn’t Our Sexualized Culture Ruined Dating?
There is no denying that the media is far more sexually charged than it was when my grandparents were dating in junior high. Now while some of that is the media following culture (The Beatles sang about hand holding while hippies swapped STDs in the 60s), I do believe that media affects the culture. The question is how do we best respond to that culture.
The commitment, exclusivity and intensity of dating is what lead to temptation and compromise in the first place. Courtship makes the problem worse by increasing the commitment which intensifies the temptation. The advocates of courtship know this, which is why chaperones are so critical to the system.
The other problem with courtship is that it often delays marriage. Courtship communities expect young people to live celibate lives in a sexually charged culture for a decade or more before they get married. The Bible instructs us to flee temptation and to marry lest you burn with lust. Courtship teaches instead to delay marriage until you are ready.
I recently heard a local pastor complaining about a rash of older 20 something women in his church who had given up on finding prince charming. They started making physical compromises in an effort to attract a man. Once they gave up on courtship they just grabbed whatever the world was offering.
The benefit of traditional dating is that the lack of exclusivity reduces temptation. It also helps young people find out who they are and who they are looking for faster. Early marriage reduces the number of years a young person must resist sexual temptation through celibacy.
Finally, I should say this: Where sin abounds, grace abounds more. I understand Grace to be the power of God to do the will of God. The power of God is greater than the power of our sexualized culture. There is nothing new under the sun and no new temptation that is not already common to man. This is not the first time Christians have lived in a sexualized culture.
If you study history, you will find that this actually happens often. In each of those generations God provided a way out. I believe that for our generation that way is Traditional Dating.
Now Let’s Talk Some Specifics
Suggestions For Single Women
If you are a single woman, realize that the reason guys are not asking you out is NOT because you are unattractive. It is because you live in a system where he must want to marry you before he can get to know you. It is the system that is broken, not you. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Somewhere out there is a guy who will see you as the most beautiful woman in the world. The more guys you meet, the faster you will find him.
- If a Christian guy asks you out for dinner, say “yes”. You don’t need to love him to say yes to a first date.
- Be friendly. Give the guy hope that he has a chance with you. Coyness is not as attractive as the media makes it out to be.
- Don’t make him run a gauntlet before he can get to know you. Realize he is not asking to marry you when he asks if he can buy you dinner.
- Some guys are hidden gems and are more than meets the eye. Give him a chance to win your attention and to earn that second date.
- If you are not interested in a guy, let him down gently. There is a way to give a firm “no” to a guy without making him feel like a worm.
- Don’t call in your dad to scare him off unless he won’t take the hint. Your dad and his shotgun should be the last resort.
- Let the guy pay for dinner.
Suggestions for Single Men
- Start asking girls out. Most girls would love to be asked out and will say “yes” if you would just ask them.
- Realize that asking a girl out for dinner is not the same as proposing marriage.
- If she says you need to talk to her dad first, take the “no” for what it is and move on to the next woman. For a better explanation of this point see 7 Reasons I Recommend Avoiding Dragon Guarded Women.
- If you have been browbeaten by harsh courtship fathers, I feel your pain. Ask God to heal your heart and to give you the courage to try again. The tide is shifting. The leaders that those men used to justify their actions are quickly fading into the past. We are entering a kinder, gentler age. Who knows. Maybe the next girl you ask out could be the one.
- Get a job. Money makes you more attractive.
- Pay for dinner.
Suggestions for Both Single Men and Single Women
- Do what your grandparents did and go out on dates with lots of different people before going steady with any of them.
- Don’t marry the first person you have feelings for.
- Keep an eye out for public places where you can have private conversations.
- Find a church with lots of single people. There are still churches out there with a healthy culture of traditional dating. If no one in your church got married last year, don’t expect to break that trend. You can always move back to your parent’s church after you find your sweetheart.
- Have fun.
- Fear God.
Suggestions For Parents
- Try to make marriage attractive to your children by loving and respecting your spouse the best you can. One reason that your children may not be getting married is because they don’t want what you have in your marriage.
- Start dating your spouse again. Do whatever you can to make your marriage a happy one.
- Encourage your sons to ask girls out on dates.
- Allow your daughters to say yes to first dates from Christian guys you don’t know.
- As your children become adults, give advice instead of commands. Being a parent does not make you a Pope for another adult.
- The gentler you are in giving advice, the more it will be sought.
- Take a step back and trust God to guide your child directly.
- Pray earnestly and persistently for your child.
- Encourage your children to find their way to places where they can meet other single people.
- Don’t force your daughters to stay at home. Let them get out into the world where they can meet godly men. If you want to catch a fish you must first walk to the pond.
- Remember that gentleness and kindness are fruits of the Spirit.
- Treat the person interested in your child as a fellow brother or sister in Christ.
How to Talk With Your Folks About Courtship
Share this post with your parents and talk to with them about why courtship is flawed and why you are going to start going out on dates.
The older you are, the easier this conversation will be. I find that even the most controlling parents start to mellow out as their single daughters start entering their 30s. That biological clock waits for no man, even Prince Charming. It will help when their friends start bragging about their grandchildren.
Listen to them as they share the mistakes they made while dating. Listen to their story of how they fell in love. Just remember that every romance is different and your story will be different. Just because your parents got divorced or live in an unhappy marriage does not doom you to their fate.
Realize that many of their rules were created out of fear. They are afraid that you will suffer the same way they did when they were your age.
Don’t forget that they love you. Explain to them that you all want the same thing: for you to be happily married.
Explain that courtship is not helping you become happily married. Courtship leads to singleness more often than it leads to marriage.
If all else fails, play the grandchildren card. Most parents want grandchildren. Try to explain that if they want grandchildren you need to get married and courtship is not helping you do that.
Where do we go from here?
Share this post with your community on Facebook and Google+ to continue the conversation. My hope is that as single people start embracing traditional dating we can restore the fun first date to our culture. The more people who read this post the more guys that will start asking girls out and the more girls who will say “yes” to that first date.
Tweetables:
- The Greatest Generation was encouraged to date and discouraged from going steady in middle school. (Click to Tweet)
- The courtship movement eliminated dating and replaced it with nothing. (Click to Tweet)
- The only tangible difference between an engagement and a courtship is the ring and the date. (Click to Tweet)
- A commitment to courtship is often a commitment to lifelong singleness. (Click to Tweet)
- Most of the moral arguments for courtship are actually arguments for arranged marriage. (Click to Tweet)
- Being a parent does not make you a Pope for another adult. (Click to Tweet)
- The benefit of traditional dating is that the lack of exclusivity reduces temptation. (Click to Tweet)
- When applying Scripture, it is important to differentiate between precedent, principle and precept. (Click to Tweet)
What do you think?
If I have learned one thing running PracticalCourtship.com, it is that courtship is very controversial. Even the definition of the word sparks a debate. That is fine. I am happy to see your thoughts and opinions in the comments. A few requests for the comments:
- Keep the conversation civil. No name calling. Just because you were hurt in the past is no excuse to hurt others in the future.
- Keep the conversation humble. Bragging about how this is not a problem in your family is not very helpful.
- Please read the follow up article before posting comments. I may have already addressed your question in the Q&A post.
- I reserve the right to delete comments. It is not censorship to take your comment off of my personal blog. Remember you can say whatever you want about me or this post on your own blog or Facebook page.
If you think that this post should be expanded into a book to respond to some of the concerns posted below, click here, to get book updates.
This post has turned into a book!
Thank you to everyone who backed Courtship in Crisis on Kickstarter. You can now find the book on Amazon.
Very interesting, wish I had read this 10 years ago…makes sense.
Do you have an advice on physical limits, kissing etc.?
thank you,
I agree with some of your points, but to compare 1950s dating to today’s is not at all realistic. People divorce more now than when your grandparents were married because it’s now acceptable and easier. More women are educated and can get jobs- they don’t have to stay because they have no other choice. It’s not just the sexual culture that’s different. All I’m saying is that I don’t think there is one pat answer to fixing the divorce rate other than taking your commitments seriously. Courters divorce but so do serial daters.
Oh here’s my original 🙂 I explained myself better in another comment….I was not referring to abusive situations or the like. Just fyi
When first divorced 17 years ago, my pastor started this courtship movement. It frightened off the men in my age bracket ( late 30’s at the time) who were so freaked out, after already making a mistake with a divorce, they were too afraid to make another one and to ask a lady out and put up with the pressure of the idea that a date equals courtship plus having to “come under church authority”. They did not want to make another mistake or be pressured like that! Well, guess what? I am still single – i left that church 7 years ago, but now th e men my age are in their 50’s and they all want a woman that is 35 -40 and pretty much unflawed by time physically. I fight feeling upset w that pastor! Lots of those singles could have found love there the 2nd time but none did.
In fact you should be grateful that you didn’t commit adultery by remarrying someone other than your original husband. Divorce other than separation by death is sinful. And don’t even try arguing against with with exception clause nonsense. That’s a very dark gray area in which there is plenty of counter-arguments from both sides.
You shouldn’t have divorced no matter what. It’s just how covenant works. If you disagree, then don’t expect Jesus to stick around when you commit sins. Sorry, just telling like it is.
Well at least now she knows that her lonliness is her own fault. I’m sure that will make her feel so much better.
While you are right of course that divorce and remarriage is sin it’s not relevant to this discussion of courtship. Were you wanting to actually help Liz you should have encouraged her to try to patch things up with her husband. That at least would have been slightly helpful or loving.
Seems like those men’s real problem was rebellion.
Which men? I don’t understand. Who exactly is rebelling against God?
I can’t find my original post in the sea, but let me explain when I said “stay committed” was thd answer, I was not referring to abusive or abandonment situations, or the like. My point was divorce is nuanced plus more except able and easier to obtain than for our grandparents. I don’t think either courting or casually dating will solve it.
I absolutely love your article. I’ve seen the flaws of courtship firsthand, and even though the man I’m marrying is the first and only man I ever dated, I’ve always been a huge proponent of traditional dating for these very reasons. The ONLY thing I think is dangerous is that when someone is dating multiple people and doesn’t ever have to be committed or serious or vulnerable, they may get in such a habit of dating that they are trained against commitment, which is the essence of what is needed by couples in marriage in addition to full submission of their hearts to the Lord. That is a huge flaw in traditional dating that is hard to combat, and could lead to a lack of true commitment in marriage, which would be the primary cause of divorce. How would you suggest battling that flaw within the traditional dating system?
I think your grandmother has some interesting things to consider. Thanks.
“There be three things which are too wonderful for me, Yea, four which I know not: The way of an eagle in the air; The way of a serpent upon a rock; The way of a ship in the midst of the sea; And the way of a man with a maid” (Prov. 30:18–19).
“The way men and women get together is a grand mystery. Those who want to reduce this grand mystery to a paint-by-numbers approach, whether that safe and predictable approach is a “courtship” approach, or a clunky approach to traditional dating. Systems won’t solve personal problems.”
From http://dougwils.com/s7-engaging-the-culture/why-courtship-is-fundamentally-awed.html
I thought that was a good point.
Curious how anyone who pushes courtship would react to my situation. My father died when I was 14. I’m 26 now and live on my own, have a college education, fly jets for a living, own my own place, and live out of state from the rest of my family. I’m a strong Christian, but fundamentally “courtship” can’t happen for me since my father is gone. Plus, on a separate note, it is really really hard to find a Christian man who is ok with me having a career. I’ve sunk years and years and lots of $ to do what I love (fly) and find most men to be so intimidated and insecure about me having a professional job that I find myself sometimes hopeless of finding someone with good values that will be happy that I have a career, even when I agree to only fly part time. I feel like I sometimes get punished by pursuing what God has put in my heart to do. I also feel like men nowadays are so insecure with an accomplished woman. Frustrating…
I am sorry for your loss. It must have been heartbreaking.
But courtship is having someone strong in the faith guide a couple in a Godly relationship. People are so often blind by love, it is important to have a third party to look out for you. Just find someone you trust help you pursue a Godly relationship with someone. Also pray. That is the most important thing. God will show you where to go.
I’m sorry. I couldn’t hear you over the sound of how awesome it is to have a job flying jets.
Guys don’t like that? What the hell? Can’t the man and woman just alternate who takes care of the kids if they both have careers? Is it that complicated? Why does a woman having a career have to be a deal breaker? Especially one with such a freaking badass job as flying jets?
Men… I shall never understand them.
Wait… I’m a man.
Yup. A lot of guys don’t like that. Especially other pilots!
I feel like men so desperately want someone to “take care of” instead of wanting someone who isn’t helpless and who just “wants to be with them.” I was in one serious relationship and me not bending on my career was a major problem for him. I felt like he wanted me give up my independence to be with him instead of him being happy for me. I needed a cheerleader, not someone who made me feel guilty for independently doing what I want to do (despite agreeing I wouldn’t fly as much if we had kids!). I loved him and it was so tempting to give up all to be with him but I knew I would get bitter later on about killing my own career.
A man who would be ok with you working outside the home has a serious biblical problem, since God specifically states that the man should provide for his family. The other problems might be that flying jets would separate you from your husband, and he would be unable to protect you, which is also one of his responsibilities. Another point is taking care of any children. Is your fun job really more important than a good husband and a family?
wow. by that logic, a man shouldn’t have a job outside of the home either, since he would be leaving his wife unprotected.
Read proverbs 31 again and tell me how that wife is not one badass woman? She runs her own business and is very independent, and how that brings her husband honor.
A husband should provide for his family.
Therefore women should not have a career.
Best… logic… ever…
The bible outlines a definite pattern for courtship.
But first, the worlds pattern!
1) Date [Go out, have fun, have sex]
2) Engage [seek deeper connection with one selection]
3) Marry [foster deeper connection with one selection]
The bible’s pattern is upside down (actually its right side up)
1) Marry [dating, is merely a pre-requisite. There is a purpose here. I’m looking for something. Fun is merely a by product]
2) Engage [focus on cleaving and renewing vows. Developing an in depth connection with acts of love]
3) Date [Have fun within that framework. Have sex. etc]
Actually, this isn’t a pattern for courtship. It’s a pattern for marriage.
And, where in the Bible do you get this pattern and its definitions? I don’t find it anywhere.
The Bible has no mandate as to how to develop mutual love and respect in the marriage relationship…it only commands that husbands love their wives, live with them in understanding, and remember that they are physically weaker than they are. It commands wives to respect and submit to their husbands. It commands both husbands and wives to satisfy one another sexually.
Christians strive to obey the commands of God regardless of the results–because they love and trust Him. Doing these things may or may not result in a “deep connection” with my spouse. The Bible doesn’t command us to develop an in depth connection with our spouses. It doesn’t command us to date our spouses. These things may or may not add to our enjoyment of our marriage relationships. This pattern may sound ideal and godly, but it isn’t found in the pages of scripture and depends quite heavily on mutual cooperation…which, very often doesn’t happen, as two separate people (who think VERY differently if only by virtue of being a man and a woman) almost always bring into marriage very, very different ideas about what makes a good marriage. No set pattern guarantees to make a marriage “good”. Honoring the Lord by obeying His explicit commands in how we treat our spouses (no matter what the results) will not only cause us to grow more like Christ ourselves, but bring glory to God and honor to His name and His word. That should be the real goal of a Christian in marriage rather than the goal of a relationship that satisfies me by connecting with another person on a deep level.
Citation needed
I understand why you might think this way, but I don’t think you understand what the purpose of courtship is, or even marriage for that matter.
You said, “This was not the deal!…The deal was that if we put up with the rules and awkwardness of courtship now we could avoid the pain of divorce later. The whole point of courtship was to have a happy marriage, not a high divorce rate.” Courtship is “dating” with the intent of finding someone to marry, with other people (the family preferably) helping guide the couple in a Godly direction. It’s not that parents don’t trust their children, it’s just most are not mature enough to see past the blindness of “love.” And people aren’t always who they say they are. There could be someone who does all of the bible studies and mission trips and not be regenerated. Actually, 85% of teens walk away from their faith.
Also, you seem to think that marriage is to bring happiness, but it’s true sole purpose is
the greatest tool God uses to sanctify people. Many people don’t understand this, including, i think, the divorced-courtiers.
Courting is also not pre-engagement. This is also a common mistake.
Finally, courtship is an environment where relationships are maturing in a Godly way. But this does not lead to a sin-free marriage. Nothing can escape the doctrine of sin. I could go on, but i will let you all think on this. (Please forgive me if I sounded harsh, I only wish to give a better understanding on this matter)
Well, here is my final response to the whole thing.
http://Godgirlsandgamedesign.blogspot.com/2014/08/why-dating-courting-and-generally-just.html
I did like the follow up, though, much better.
Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts! God has opened my eyes to some wrong theories I had as a parent with your words! A book would be great!
Great thoughts, Thomas! I ‘m proud of you for taking a stand that you knew would be controversial and sticking with it. Like all matters of public policy, whether courting or dating is the best scenario may depend upon the person or circumstance you find yourself in.
As the parents of daughters who made their own decisions about dating, we took delight when they would have their prospective date ask Dad if he was ok with the arrangement. However, not every date was required to make that request. One of
our daughters comment was that requiring a guy to ask Dad served to “weed out the dead wood.” If she wasn’t worth making the effort, he wasn’t worth her time. Both daughters are happily married despite any threats their dad made toward proposed suitors.
I have seen some of the problems you have identified, especially among homeschooled families. Whether dating is the solution or not, I can’t say. But when it comes to adult children, it should be the adult child, not the parents who are making that decision. Will some make poor decisions? Of course. That is the process of growing and maturing.
Again, I commend you on your courage for bringing up the issue for discussion. If all my daughters were not already happily married I’d certainly allow them to date you. Mama Seay
I not so happy about this post. I want you to know somethings that you are mistaken on!
1. When you enter a stage with any girl/guy it is most likely the friendship stage. Am I right? So when your saying your entering “a stage where you have to ask the dad to get to know her” but by this point you should already know her pretty well just from the friendship point of view.
2. Most girls who court have a really good relationship with their Father (open talking, etc.) in which the dad will know when his girl likes a guy.
3.The 30s and 40s were a different time period. People who dated then would be appalled at the dating in the 90s much less 2014. Their intent was still to find a soul mate.
4. When you talk about chaperons. They are normally there yes so you don’t kiss and so on but their there to keep you accountable for what you promised one another.
5. I’m not very happy that you think its okay to tell your parents that your not going to follow there rules and to be rebellious! That goes against what the bible says!
6. I am a young lady who plan on courting. I like the idea of my dad being there with me every step of the way and yes I can do it on my own but I value my dads opinion. He know me best and he’s a man!
1. How are you supposed to be friends/get to know a girl, if you have to ask the dad for a first date.
2. This is an assumption. Citation needed
3. Exactly… that’s why we need to harken back to those times when things worked. dating is bad. Traditional dating is good.
4. If you can’t respect the boundaries of your significant other when other people aren’t watching then you won’t respect your significant other’s boundaries when you’re married.
5. The bible says to honor your father and mother. Not do everything they say (unless you’re a child) parents are not Jesus. They aren’t perfect. Don’t do stuff your parents tell you if they are wrong.
6. Well naturally we should get advice from parents. That’s an excellent idea no matter what the system. Courtship isn’t about advice. It’s about control. And if you like being controlled then well I suppose more power to you. Hope your courtship works out.
Courtship is not about you parents controlling you it about having a good steady relationship with your boyfriend/girlfriends family. Its seems as if people are looking at it wrong! I know many of people who courted and waited for their first kiss. None of them have gotten divorced!! Over a summer of marriages only one has gotten divorced and they didn’t court nor saved their first kiss.
Is honoring your father and mother not doing as they say?
While honor is an internal attitude of respect, courtesy, and reverence, it should be accompanied by appropriate attention or even obedience. Honor without such action is incomplete; it is lip service . God, for example, is honored when people do the things that please him. Parents are honored through the obedience of their children.
Most of the time you are not going to ask the dad to court his daughter if you don’t know who she is. Which you can also learn by having a friendship. Is friendship not the first step to any relationship? When you “court” it’s just like going on a first date only you aren’t one-on-one you are getting to know the family along with the girl\guy. I don’t know how you are going to have a good relationship with your in-laws if you are going to date a girl when her parents want her to court. How is that respectful to her or her parents?
If the parents can dictate who their daughter can date how is that not control? If people of any age are forced to do what their parents say that is control.
If you have to ask the parents just to be friends (the current system) then how are you supposed to know a girl before you ask to get engaged (I mean to “court her”
This is an amazing article listing all of the objections that I have had to the “courting” mentality over the years. Excellent argument for dating within boundaries.
Thank you for taking the time to write and share this very interesting read. Please do let this become a book! I totally agree on the issues mentioned about courtship and think you have very bright grandparents! Runs in their family!
While I do believe you’ve made several good points with the article, and I hope to implement several of these suggestions with my own childrens’ dating standards, I believe you are WAY off when telling young men to just move on to the next girl if the girl asks him to talk to her father. IF the father is only there to control every aspect of the girl’s life, then I agree with you, BUT many times asking a father’s permission to date his daughter is extremely respectful to the father AND the daughter. Imagine how great a father-in-law / son-in-law relationship could be when it starts off with such a high degree of respect! If a guy is unwilling to “jump through the hoops” and ask the father, why would a girl even want to date him? “He’ll take me on a date, but only if it’s extremely easy for him and there’s no discomfort for him.” ?!? How does that make sense?!
You have written a fabulous article that is thorough in almost every respect. There is only one area where you might consider some expansion.
Safety.
Some families encourage courtship or group dating due to the “safety in numbers” concept. Many girls are brought up to believe that men are inherently untrustworthy, sex-obsessed, and dangerous and that this style of seeking a mate is “safe.” Perhaps you might consider adding some dating safety tips to your “advice for girls” section or your article or book? Tips such as encouraging girls how to be smart when dating like driving themselves to chosen public meeting place for the first few dates. Tips of this kind might help girls who need to convince parents that they can be safely allowed to date when they have been required to court or group date merely as a guise for overprotectiveness.
Get a chl
Problem solved.
Wow what a very educative article that is. My church can relate to this heaps, why most of us are still single. Personally I have been educated heaps reading this article. Time to make some changes! I don’t think I know what I want in a woman, no wonder my many hiccups in my relationships. Thanks again
Just a thought on young men being asked to ask the girls father. This isn’t necessarily a sign that the family promotes courtship. I followed this path with my daughter before she had her first date with the boy and had the conversation 3 times.
I think you are over-simplifying the problems with dating in a sexually charged culture. When I was 19, I had three men persue me @ once, and all 3 of them thought they were entitled to some level of sexual intimacy even though they knew about eachother… I’d have loved to have an interested & wise father near by to stand up for me. That was 15 yrs ago, and I get the impression that most people’s ideas around dating & sex are even more relaxed now!
I think the real flaws in your concept of courtship lie more in the method and the type of father involved.
I met my husband (an extreme introvert) in a gathering of 6. When he heard me speak, he got so excited that he also started speaking. By the end of the evening, we were finnishing eachother’s sentences. We saw eachother as friends for about 6 months before ‘dating’. I didn’t even know about courtship, but when he asked me out, I made it clear that I was sick of serial dating, & would only consider dating if we were both looking towards marriage, & if we would agree to break it off & go back to friends as soon as either of us had doubts about marrying. More than 2 yrs later we got engaged, and married a year later. We did actually call things off once during the first few months, but our friendship lead back into dating. We’ve been happily married for 9 years… And we’re as inlove as we were when we started dating.
My folks realised that our relationship was different when I asked to swop Easter chocolates with my dad so that I could share it with my ‘friend’ when I got back to town… Apparently they had never seen me share my chocolate, & had never known me to keep my chocolate that long either. But I did keep it till I returned to town after my Easter holiday, and I did share it with the man who is now my husband.
I don’t think that either the ‘courtship’ you know about, nor the dating model you propose are ideal.
I hear your concerns and think you have some very valid concerns. However the truth is we don’t live in your grandparents world anymore and where some of their ideas sound great they don’t work in our society today. My husband and I grew up in the date lots of folks mentality and without parental protection. We both grew up in Christian homes with good Christian morals and we both had negative experiences with traditional dating. I think a combination of courting and dating might be a better way to go. Having a young man ask a girls father for permission to date her is wonderful. Let me explain, as a newly turned 16 year old I was suddenly thrown into the Lion’s den of young men. There was one young man who had been pursuing me who I was not interested in and was safe behind the “no dating till 16” rule. But all stops were pulled out when I turned that magic number. I was on my own to deal with all the awkwardness of being pursued by boys I was not interested in dating. The couple of times I did go out on dates with boys who I did not know it was awkward and VERY uncomfortable. Getting to know my future husband in a group setting before being asked out on a date was good. First I knew what he was like before there was interest so I got a truer picture of who he was without the “best foot forward” syndrome that can be so damaging in relationships. Here are some reasons I believe having a young man asking permission to date a girl is good. First it takes a lot of courage for a young man to approach a girls father, it says something about his character. Second, it is a protection for the girl. If she knows there is a young man interested in her but she does not return the interest she can say to her dad “I am not interested” and he can then tactfully relay that to the young man sparing both of the kids an awkward moment. Third, it puts the young man in gentle accountability to the father. If there is questionable behavior ( excessive intimacy, concerns from the girl, bad behavior) the father can gently and lovingly approach the young man about the concern.
We have found that so far this approach is safe but not too restricted and requires the young men to make themselves accountable, allowing them a healthy fear that they need to treat the young lady respectfully.
Let me qualify my thoughts with this, if a father is dictative and controlling in his dealings with his family there may problems, not because of the method but because of his approach and there will probably be problems regardless of there approach to their children’s relationships.
I do not intend any disrespect to the writer of this article but I do feel that the opinion of t he writer is a knee jerk reaction to a knee jerk reaction. Be careful not throw the baby out with the bath water.
As a Youth Pastor and father of 4 young girls, this is an issue that hits close to home. I was home-schooled and also read I Kissed Dating Goodbye back in the day, I however didn’t like all the rules that were in place and much preferred Josh’s 2nd book Boy Meets Girl which was his story of how he met his and pursued his wife. Here’s my story and a couple of thoughts: I have only ever dated one woman, my wife Jenny. We met in college and after getting to know each other I asked her fathers permission to date her with a pledge to treat her with respect, he agreed. I am thankful he did as after reading this post my heart broke for the men who have asked and been rejected by fathers how foolish of those fathers to not give them a chance to prove themselves 1st! My wife had dated several guys before me and had been wounded by them in various ways. We were married 1 1/2 years after we started officially dating, marriage is never easy but ours has been a blessing to each of us! In our dating relationship I took some of the ideals I thought made sense and used them like getting to know each others families, not spending all our time alone separated from our friends, and psychical boundaries. This worked for us.
I definitely agree with the author on the point he made that there isn’t a biblical mandate that says you must not date but court in order to find your spouse. I do however as a Youth Pastor question the logic of trying to return to a 20’s-50’s era dating relationship ideal of dating lots of people. What I see in youth ministry is that we in America have lost the value of sex and purity it is no longer something worth treasuring as it was in the past and now children and teens are sexually active with friends and significant others. So no longer would the lack of commitment matter if Susie is going out with Billy on Tuesday and Bobby Thursday, and Steve on Saturday…she would likely have no problem making out(a nice way of saying sexually interacting) with any or all of them and this would be the norm for America and Europe today.
So then what do we as parents and followers of Christ do? We stop saying this is how you have to meet your spouse and instead teach our children to love God first and then show them the value that they have so that they don’t settle for losers. A lot of this comes to us as Fathers to tell your son how proud you are of him and how he is becoming a Godly man…then teach him how to treat women by the way you treat your wife and explain to him as he grows older why we treat women like we are taught to in the Bible (Eph 5:25 a love that puts her 1st). Also we need to let our daughters know that they are beautiful and to individually identify their talents and abilities that make them unique and amazing. Moms also need to teach their sons and daughters what love looks like and affirm their children.
Long story short-courtship is flawed. Dating is flawed. People as a whole are flawed. God isn’t. If we raise our children to be more like Christ they will make better decisions and we won’t always be there to help them choose well but God will be.