Author’s Note: This blog post has been expanded and clarified in my book Courtship in Crisis.
I grew up as a member of the homeschool community back when we were hiding from the cops and getting our textbooks from public school dumpsters. When I was a teenager, my friends started reading this new book called I Kissed Dating Goodbye. For months we could talk of little else. After reading it myself, I grew into as big an opponent of dating as you could find. Dating was evil and Courtship, whatever it was, was godly, good and Biblical.
My grandparents would often ask why I wasn’t dating in high school. I explained what courtship was and quoted Joshua Harris, chapter and verse. Their response surprised me.
“I don’t think courtship is a smart idea,” my grandfather said.
“How can you tell who you want to marry if you aren’t going out on dates?” my grandmother wondered every time the topic came up. I tried to convince them but to no avail. They both obstinately held to the position that courtship was a foolish idea.
Well, what did they know? They were public schooled. I ignored their advice on relationships, preferring to listen to the young people around me who were passionate advocates of courtship.
As I grew older, I started to speak at homeschool conferences and events. I talked with homeschool parents, students and alumni all over the country and started to see some challenges with making courtship work.
Some of the specific challenges I identified were:
- Identification (Finding that other person)
- Interaction (Spending time with the other person)
- Initiation (Starting the relationship)
So I founded PracticalCourtship.com. Its purpose: to instigate a national conversation about how to make courtship more practical. Visits and comments poured in from all over the country about how to make courtship work and why it did not work.
Each year I waited for courtship to start working and for my homeschool friends to start getting married. It never happened. Most of them are still single. Some have grown bitter and jaded. Then couples who did get married through courtship started getting divorced. I’m talking the kind of couples who first kissed at their wedding were filing for divorce.
This was not the deal!
The deal was that if we put up with the rules and awkwardness of courtship now we could avoid the pain of divorce later. The whole point of courtship was to have a happy marriage, not a high divorce rate.
So I humbled myself and took my grandmother out for dinner to hear why she thought courtship was a bad idea all those years ago. She had predicted the failure of courtship back in the 90s and I wanted to understand how and why.
Now let me define what I mean by “courtship”.
So what is courtship anyway?
After 20 years there still is no general consensus as to what courtship is. But here are the elements most conservative communities have in common:
- The man must ask the woman’s father’s permission before pursuing the woman romantically.
- High accountability (chaperones, monitored correspondence, etc).
- Rules about physical contact and purity. (The specific rules vary from community to community).
- The purpose of the courtship is marriage
- High relational intentionality and intensity
- High parental involvement. Fathers typically hold a “permission and control” role rather than the traditional “advice and blessing” role held by their fathers.
The Case for Traditional Dating
My grandmother grew up in a marginally Christian community. People went to church on Sunday, but that was the extent of their religious activity. They were not the Bible-reading, small-grouping, mission-tripping Christian young people common in evangelical churches today.
And yet her community of friends all got married and then stayed married for decades and decades. So what on earth were they doing that worked so well? Over dinner, my grandmother shared her story about what dating was like back in the 30s and 40s.
When my grandmother dated in middle school (yes, middle school) her parents had one primary rule for her.
The Primary Dating Rule: Don’t go out with the same guy twice in a row.
So if she went out for soda with Bob on Tuesday, she had to go to a movie with Bill on Thursday before she could go to the school dance with Bob on Saturday.
That sounded crazy to me. So, I asked her the rationale behind it. She explained that the lack of exclusivity helped them guard their hearts and kept things from getting too serious too quickly. The lack of exclusivity kept the interactions fun and casual. “The guys wouldn’t even want to kiss you!” She said.
The lack of exclusivity helped the girls guard their hearts and kept the boys from feeling entitled to the girl. How could a boy have a claim to her time, heart or body if she was going out with someone else later that week?
She went on to explain that by the time she graduated from high school, she had gone out on dates with over 20 different guys. This meant that by the time she was 17 years old she knew which Bob she wanted to marry. They got married and stayed married till my grandfather passed away half a century later.
“If I had only gone out with 3 or 4 guys I wouldn’t have known what I wanted in a husband,” she said.
It is not that her parents were uninvolved; it is that they played an advisory role, particularly as she entered high school and they relaxed the rules about not going steady.
The Difference Between “Dating” and “Going Steady”
She went on to explain that there used to be a linguistic differentiation between “dating” and “going steady”. “Going steady” meant you were going out with the same person multiple times in a row. It often had symbols like the girl wearing the guy’s letter jacket. This telegraphed to everyone at school that she was “off the market” and that she had a “steady beau”.
It seems that my great grandparents’ rule forbidding my grandmother from going out with the same guy twice in a row was a common rule in those days.
The Greatest Generation was encouraged to date and discouraged from going steady while in middle school.
This is different from my generation, which is encouraged to “wait until you are ready to get married” before pursuing a romantic relationship. This advice, when combined with the fact that “the purpose of courtship is marriage”, makes asking a girl out for dinner the emotional equivalent of asking for her hand in marriage.
I am not convinced that anyone is ever truly ready to get married. Readiness can become a carrot on a stick, an ideal that can never be achieved. Marriage will always be a bit like jumping into a pool of cold water. A humble realization that you are not ready and in need of God’s help may be the more healthy way to start a marriage.
As the decades moved on, our language and behavior changed. We stopped using the phrase “going steady” and changed “dating” to mean “going steady”. For example, we would now say “John and Sarah have been dating for 3 months.” when the Greatest Generation would have said “John and Sarah have been going steady for 3 months.”
We then started using new pejoratives like “dating around” and “playing the field” to describe what used to just be called “dating”. Each decade added more exclusivity, intensity, and commitment to dating and saw a subsequent rise in temptation and promiscuity.
It is easier to justify promiscuity when you are exclusively committed to just one person, even if that commitment is only a week old.
In the late 80s and early 90s this promiscuous culture reached its peak. People would “go steady” for just a few weeks and then move on to the next relationship. It was this “hookup and breakup” culture that the founders of courtship were reacting to.
But their proposed solution involved adding even more commitment, exclusivity and intensity, the very things that lead to the problem in the first place. This is why courtship is fundamentally flawed.
The courtship movement eliminated dating and replaced it with nothing.
Or, put another way, they replaced dating with engagement. The only tangible difference between an engagement and a courtship is the ring and the date.
Similarities between Courtship & Engagement:
- They both require the permission of the father.
- They both are intended for marriage.
- They are not “broken up” but are instead “called off”.
- When they are called off there is an inevitable rending of a community as one of the couple no longer feel comfortable spending time with the community of their ex-future spouse.
Young people are expected to jump from interacting with each other in groups straight into “pseudo-engagement”. This is a jump very few are prepared to make. The result is that a commitment to courtship is often a commitment to lifelong singleness.
Why the Courtship Divorce Rate is So High
Recently I have seen a spike in divorces amongst couples who courted. I have a few theories as to why this is. Young people whose parents often maintain veto power on all of their decisions are then expected to make this most important decision without any experience in good decision making. They have no context of who they are, past decision making or an idea of what they are looking for in a spouse.
How can you know what personality you fit well with if you only go out with one other person? The result can be a mismatched couple and a marriage that is difficult to sustain.
Right now all we have little research to go on in terms of the courtship divorce rate. In my observations, some homeschool communities have a much higher divorce rate than others. I would be very interested in seeing some research on this phenomenon. This blog post is my call for more research on the divorce rate amongst couples who “courted” before getting married.
Advantages of Traditional Dating
Less Temptation – It is hard to fall in love with Bob on Tuesday when you know you are going out for coffee with Bill on Thursday. This lack of emotional commitment leads to less physical temptation. Less temptation leads to less compromise. I have no idea how women are supposed to guard their hearts while in an exclusive relationship with the purpose of marriage.
More Interaction – I know many homeschool girls who are frustrated that they never get asked out on a date. It is not uncommon to find a 21 year old stay at home daughter who has never been asked out on a date. The reason for this is not because the girl is unattractive (although that may be the story she convinces herself of over time).
The real reason is that few guys are willing to ask permission from a woman’s father to marry her before being able to ask her out on a date to get to know her. Even when this permission is requested, it is unlikely to be given.
I know several godly, hardworking and attractive homeschool guys who have been rejected by as many as a dozen fathers. I respect their tenacity. Getting turned down by courtship fathers is tough on guys because the fathers are rarely gentle or kind. So if you are a courtship-minded girl wondering why the guys are not calling, you may want to ask your dad how many guys he has run off.
With Traditional Dating, asking a girl out on a date is no big deal. All the guy is asking to do is to get to know the girl better. Maybe this leads to a deeper relationship, maybe it doesn’t. Either way, the interaction is easier and more fun when it is not so intense.
Less Heartbreak – One of the promises of courtship is that it can lead to less heartbreak than dating. I laugh at this to keep myself from crying. This could not be further from the truth. Calling off a courtship can be as emotionally wrenching as calling off an engagement. It can take years to recover from a “failed courtship.” Also let’s not also forget the emotional cost for girls of not being asked out year after year and the emotional cost for guys of being rejected by father after father.
More Marriage – Let’s face it, most married people got married because they dated first. I would even submit that most homeschoolers who do get married supplemented with dating at some point in their journey. Courtship is not resulting in many marriages despite having been advocated by (sometimes unmarried) conservative leaders for nearly 20 years.
More Fun – The institution of marriage is crumbling. Of the last two generations, one won’t get married and the other won’t stay married. A smaller percentage of people are married in America than at any other time. Part of what helps perpetuate the institution of marriage is making the process of getting married fun. My grandmother made dating in her day sound really fun. Courtship on the other hand can be awkward and emotionally heartwrenching.
Dating also trains people to continue dating their spouse after they get married. It is important for married couples to be able to have fun with each other. The kind of parents who are the strongest advocates of courtship are often the ones who go on the fewest dates with each other.
More Matchmaking – Modern Courtship doesn’t really have a mechanism for matchmaking. How can there be blind dates if the man must first get permission from a father? Courtship relationships are so intense that even introductions can be awkward. I know many happily married couples who met through a blind date or an online matchmaking service like eHarmony. Matchmaking is a time-tested practice that Traditional Dating is fully compatible with. Courtship? Not so much.
More League Awareness – Not everyone has the same level of attractiveness, character, intelligence and wealth. Parents tend to see their own children through rose-colored glasses. Homeschool communities can be a bit like Lake Wobegon where all the children are above average. It is easy for “no guy to be good enough for daddy’s little princess”. The sad result of enforcing this mindset is a daughter who becomes a spinster. With traditional dating guys learn their league by finding out what girls say “yes” to that second date. Girls learn their league by seeing what kind of guys ask them out.
Responding to Common Questions & Objections to Traditional Dating
Why Not Just Spend Time in Groups?
If you talk with advocates of modern courtship they speak highly of single people spending time in groups. Group settings reduce the intensity, commitment and exclusivity and thus protect the hearts of single people.
The problem with group settings is that not all personality types open up in group settings. Many married couples include one spouse who is more comfortable in group settings than the other. These couples may have never found each other if they were limited to “group dating.”
In group activities, it can be hard for the wallflowers to be discovered for the flowers that they really are. They need a less intense 1-on-1 setting in which to bloom. Group settings are particularly rough on women who grew up in communities where they were trained to value submissiveness, meekness and quietness.
The other challenge with group settings is that they are logistically complex. The more people you add to the group, the harder coordination becomes. Where is a stay-at-home daughter who attends a small family integrated church supposed to find groups of young people to hang out with? The result of limiting interaction to group settings is many lonely nights interacting with no one.
But Isn’t Courtship Biblical?
When applying Scripture, particularly the Old Testament, to our lives, it is important to differentiate between Biblical precedent, principle and precept. Just because Jacob had two wives and a seven-year engagement does not mean that God wants all men to have two wives and seven-year engagements.
What we have in the Old Testament is a lot of precedent: each story is different from the last.
For precedents we have:
- the woman as the protagonist in the romance (Ruth & Boaz)
- the man as the protagonist in the romance (Jacob & Rachel)
- the romance arranged by a third party (Isaac & Rebekah)
- the woman entering the man’s harem (David & Abigail, Micah, Bathsheba etc.)
There are some good Scriptural precepts about sexual purity in the New Testament, and there are some principles about the benefits of marrying young and that sort of thing.
But the Bible is surprisingly quiet when it comes to laying out a system of courtship. Courtship Systems are cultural, and the Bible rarely advocates one cultural approach over another. God’s heart is that every tribe and tongue come worship him without having to surrender their food, language or other cultural distinctives in the process.
Most of the moral arguments for courtship are actually arguments for arranged marriage. The arguments for the strong involvement of parents fit arranged marriage much better than they fit courtship.
When I started PracticalCourtship.com, one of my goals was to never use the site to criticize arranged marriage. In countries like India, that have both arranged marriages and “love marriages,” the arranged marriages have the lower divorce rate. Arranged marriage has been used by many cultures for many years with good results.
The problem is that arranged marriage is not a good fit for western culture. Many Americans value individual liberty more than life itself. Giving this most important decision to someone else is not something many of us are comfortable with. Also, parents are often hesitant to arrange marriages lest their child resent them if the marriage turns out to be an unhappy one.
I don’t see Arranged Marriage taking off in Western Culture.
We need a system to help young people make good decisions. Fortunately, we have one: Traditional Dating.
Traditional Dating fits our culture like a glove. Most of Americans already intuitively know how it works because it is part of who we are as a people. If you don’t know how it works, ask your grandparents and they will tell you of the glory days when men were free. Watch the twinkle in their eye when they tell you of a time when men and women could fall in love and pick their own spouses.
Hasn’t Our Sexualized Culture Ruined Dating?
There is no denying that the media is far more sexually charged than it was when my grandparents were dating in junior high. Now while some of that is the media following culture (The Beatles sang about hand holding while hippies swapped STDs in the 60s), I do believe that media affects the culture. The question is how do we best respond to that culture.
The commitment, exclusivity and intensity of dating is what lead to temptation and compromise in the first place. Courtship makes the problem worse by increasing the commitment which intensifies the temptation. The advocates of courtship know this, which is why chaperones are so critical to the system.
The other problem with courtship is that it often delays marriage. Courtship communities expect young people to live celibate lives in a sexually charged culture for a decade or more before they get married. The Bible instructs us to flee temptation and to marry lest you burn with lust. Courtship teaches instead to delay marriage until you are ready.
I recently heard a local pastor complaining about a rash of older 20 something women in his church who had given up on finding prince charming. They started making physical compromises in an effort to attract a man. Once they gave up on courtship they just grabbed whatever the world was offering.
The benefit of traditional dating is that the lack of exclusivity reduces temptation. It also helps young people find out who they are and who they are looking for faster. Early marriage reduces the number of years a young person must resist sexual temptation through celibacy.
Finally, I should say this: Where sin abounds, grace abounds more. I understand Grace to be the power of God to do the will of God. The power of God is greater than the power of our sexualized culture. There is nothing new under the sun and no new temptation that is not already common to man. This is not the first time Christians have lived in a sexualized culture.
If you study history, you will find that this actually happens often. In each of those generations God provided a way out. I believe that for our generation that way is Traditional Dating.
Now Let’s Talk Some Specifics
Suggestions For Single Women
If you are a single woman, realize that the reason guys are not asking you out is NOT because you are unattractive. It is because you live in a system where he must want to marry you before he can get to know you. It is the system that is broken, not you. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Somewhere out there is a guy who will see you as the most beautiful woman in the world. The more guys you meet, the faster you will find him.
- If a Christian guy asks you out for dinner, say “yes”. You don’t need to love him to say yes to a first date.
- Be friendly. Give the guy hope that he has a chance with you. Coyness is not as attractive as the media makes it out to be.
- Don’t make him run a gauntlet before he can get to know you. Realize he is not asking to marry you when he asks if he can buy you dinner.
- Some guys are hidden gems and are more than meets the eye. Give him a chance to win your attention and to earn that second date.
- If you are not interested in a guy, let him down gently. There is a way to give a firm “no” to a guy without making him feel like a worm.
- Don’t call in your dad to scare him off unless he won’t take the hint. Your dad and his shotgun should be the last resort.
- Let the guy pay for dinner.
Suggestions for Single Men
- Start asking girls out. Most girls would love to be asked out and will say “yes” if you would just ask them.
- Realize that asking a girl out for dinner is not the same as proposing marriage.
- If she says you need to talk to her dad first, take the “no” for what it is and move on to the next woman. For a better explanation of this point see 7 Reasons I Recommend Avoiding Dragon Guarded Women.
- If you have been browbeaten by harsh courtship fathers, I feel your pain. Ask God to heal your heart and to give you the courage to try again. The tide is shifting. The leaders that those men used to justify their actions are quickly fading into the past. We are entering a kinder, gentler age. Who knows. Maybe the next girl you ask out could be the one.
- Get a job. Money makes you more attractive.
- Pay for dinner.
Suggestions for Both Single Men and Single Women
- Do what your grandparents did and go out on dates with lots of different people before going steady with any of them.
- Don’t marry the first person you have feelings for.
- Keep an eye out for public places where you can have private conversations.
- Find a church with lots of single people. There are still churches out there with a healthy culture of traditional dating. If no one in your church got married last year, don’t expect to break that trend. You can always move back to your parent’s church after you find your sweetheart.
- Have fun.
- Fear God.
Suggestions For Parents
- Try to make marriage attractive to your children by loving and respecting your spouse the best you can. One reason that your children may not be getting married is because they don’t want what you have in your marriage.
- Start dating your spouse again. Do whatever you can to make your marriage a happy one.
- Encourage your sons to ask girls out on dates.
- Allow your daughters to say yes to first dates from Christian guys you don’t know.
- As your children become adults, give advice instead of commands. Being a parent does not make you a Pope for another adult.
- The gentler you are in giving advice, the more it will be sought.
- Take a step back and trust God to guide your child directly.
- Pray earnestly and persistently for your child.
- Encourage your children to find their way to places where they can meet other single people.
- Don’t force your daughters to stay at home. Let them get out into the world where they can meet godly men. If you want to catch a fish you must first walk to the pond.
- Remember that gentleness and kindness are fruits of the Spirit.
- Treat the person interested in your child as a fellow brother or sister in Christ.
How to Talk With Your Folks About Courtship
Share this post with your parents and talk to with them about why courtship is flawed and why you are going to start going out on dates.
The older you are, the easier this conversation will be. I find that even the most controlling parents start to mellow out as their single daughters start entering their 30s. That biological clock waits for no man, even Prince Charming. It will help when their friends start bragging about their grandchildren.
Listen to them as they share the mistakes they made while dating. Listen to their story of how they fell in love. Just remember that every romance is different and your story will be different. Just because your parents got divorced or live in an unhappy marriage does not doom you to their fate.
Realize that many of their rules were created out of fear. They are afraid that you will suffer the same way they did when they were your age.
Don’t forget that they love you. Explain to them that you all want the same thing: for you to be happily married.
Explain that courtship is not helping you become happily married. Courtship leads to singleness more often than it leads to marriage.
If all else fails, play the grandchildren card. Most parents want grandchildren. Try to explain that if they want grandchildren you need to get married and courtship is not helping you do that.
Where do we go from here?
Share this post with your community on Facebook and Google+ to continue the conversation. My hope is that as single people start embracing traditional dating we can restore the fun first date to our culture. The more people who read this post the more guys that will start asking girls out and the more girls who will say “yes” to that first date.
Tweetables:
- The Greatest Generation was encouraged to date and discouraged from going steady in middle school. (Click to Tweet)
- The courtship movement eliminated dating and replaced it with nothing. (Click to Tweet)
- The only tangible difference between an engagement and a courtship is the ring and the date. (Click to Tweet)
- A commitment to courtship is often a commitment to lifelong singleness. (Click to Tweet)
- Most of the moral arguments for courtship are actually arguments for arranged marriage. (Click to Tweet)
- Being a parent does not make you a Pope for another adult. (Click to Tweet)
- The benefit of traditional dating is that the lack of exclusivity reduces temptation. (Click to Tweet)
- When applying Scripture, it is important to differentiate between precedent, principle and precept. (Click to Tweet)
What do you think?
If I have learned one thing running PracticalCourtship.com, it is that courtship is very controversial. Even the definition of the word sparks a debate. That is fine. I am happy to see your thoughts and opinions in the comments. A few requests for the comments:
- Keep the conversation civil. No name calling. Just because you were hurt in the past is no excuse to hurt others in the future.
- Keep the conversation humble. Bragging about how this is not a problem in your family is not very helpful.
- Please read the follow up article before posting comments. I may have already addressed your question in the Q&A post.
- I reserve the right to delete comments. It is not censorship to take your comment off of my personal blog. Remember you can say whatever you want about me or this post on your own blog or Facebook page.
If you think that this post should be expanded into a book to respond to some of the concerns posted below, click here, to get book updates.
This post has turned into a book!
Thank you to everyone who backed Courtship in Crisis on Kickstarter. You can now find the book on Amazon.
Thank you Thomas for a profound and very timely look at what’s going on in the world of courtship/dating. I will definitely be passing this blog on to friends and family, and I would love to see this become a book.
Thank you especially for addressing the issue of the controlling father. I recently heard a prominent pastor talking about how he was going to make young men fill out an application to date his daughters and how he’d be cleaning his shotgun at the kitchen table when the young man showed up. That attitude is so disrespectful towards his daughters. He is assuming that his daughters will be witless and weak – what does that say about his fathering if that’s the kind of young adult he believes he is raising?
I do wonder if it’s possible to go back to the “golden age” of traditional dating. I have a fourteen year old son and I’m afraid that if he went on dates with lots of girls he’d be seen as a “player” and quickly ruin his reputation, even in the secular environment of our public school. One of the reasons I never felt comfortable embracing the courtship movement is that I’m skeptical about any movement that seeks to recreate a probably-mythical golden age. Even if the bygone age was golden, it is also bygone.
No, it’s heartening to see a man committed to the responsibility God gave him to protect his daughters. In a world of passive men that is a great thing.
Such great information. I was caught up in this for awhile, it really is stifling to say the least. What our parents say can really affect us and how we think about dating or courtship. My Mom said something that affected me a lot, I didn’t date too much, some in college but not in High School. I definitely had an incorrect mindset about it. God led me to a wonderful man in a small church. He had been married before which was a no-no as far as I was concerned. But no children were involved and we waited for God’s timing not our own. It has been 20 years now and we still know God brought us together and is leading us in life. Thank you for the article and the great advice.
“Money makes you attractive”?
That’s pure poison to tell men and women, boys and girls.
But’s it’s pretty tweetable; Gordon Gecko would eat it up.
If I lend my best tool to a friend, I want to know it will come back as good as I lent it – barring a catastrophic act of God. Same with a car, or a home. I’d want to meet and know the person using my tool, car, home. Our children are more precious.
I won’t let my children go places with other children I don’t know. I won’t let them hang-out in homes with parents I haven’t met.
So, yes: As a father I would expect a visit from a new boy who I don’t know before he can go anywhere with the girl I’m charged by the Almighty to protect. And I’d want to talk to his parents, too. My expectation is that she will return in the same condition she leaves. Anything less is (1) foolish and (2) care-less (without care) of a father.
I have found that in only talking with a number of ladies, not even “dating”, they already can push for getting married. So, I see it can be on a lady’s mind, even if all we do is “date”. And I would not want to get the hopes up, of someone who is “desperate” or whatever. So, now that I have someone I appreciate, though we are not planning to get married, I make it clear she is my “lady friend”, so others are less likely to mislead themselves.
But I prayed for what relationship God wants me to have with a lady, and then we developed with each other.
I think our own character has a lot to do with what works and how it will work. Our own ways and character can get us connected with the one we share with. So, it is important first to get God’s correction and become able to obey how our Father leads us > Hebrews 12:4-11, Matthew 11:28-30, Colossians 3:15; plus, to learn how to relate with all people the way the Bible says to relate, so we have matured in this for doing well in love in marriage > Ephesians 4:31-32, Ephesians 4:2, 1 Peter 3:8-9, 1 Peter 5:3. Invest first in learning how to love.
“For if you love those who love you, what reward have you?” (in Matthew 5:46)
And I find that if we are younger, we have not matured like we need to. So, we need truly much more mature people to help us, to evaluate us and our companions. It is like how we don’t have a chance, without God who is “older” and “more mature” (c: He has older truly mature and seasoned couples to help us. So, using an independent and self-willed “free” approach can be a disaster. What can happen is the more aggressive one will control things and be sure or act so sure, that he or she is the right one, and can be convincing and even dictating that the other agree and go along . . . not even welcoming the other to pray and test.
“Test all things; hold fast what is good.” (1 Thessalonians 5:21)
And we need to always welcome one another to love any and all others, the way Jesus all-loving desires us to do, as our Groom (c: He is not jealous, about us loving any and all people. So, we need now to invest in this, so we are compatible with our Groom Jesus (c:
Good article that gives interesting discussion – A quote I have come to love in regards to people’s ‘advice’ is, “Advice is like hand-me-down clothes – keep what fits, and discard what doesn’t”. Just because one person’s experience was bad/good with something, doesn’t mean I have to take on their experience as my own. I have known people who go on lots of dates with lots of guys, and it be both healthy and very unhealthy. I know people who came to know their wife in ways that were completely opposite of “courtship” and are still married 30 years later, yet I know people who followed a “courtship” model (maybe not exactly as explained above, but generally similar), and they have thriving marriages as well. My wife and I have our unique story, as does everyone else. God is so creative, especially if you allow Him to be… I don’t think we should try to put His creativity into a box. All that said, I have no real advice or opinion other than to the men – Love God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength; Honor your woman (physically, emotionally, spiritually). It may look a little different to each person.
Tweetables:
“Dating a bunch of guys to know which one to marriage is called ’empiricism’. It puts the authority in her measurements instead of what the Word says. It’s what Eve did when she ate the fruit.”
“The greatest generation gave us a church that wrapped itself in the flag and confused the Gospel with capitalism, confused a Kingdom life with Leave it to Beaver. It gave us therapeutic, moralistic deism. What could be wrong with their views on dating?”
“The benefit of traditional dating is that the lack of exclusivity reduces temptation… to masturbate. Keeping things superficial makes it easier to keep things promiscuous.”
“When you really get good at ‘lack of exclusivity’ you can show up anywhere, anytime and find someone for sex.”
“Allow your daughters to say yes to first dates from Christian guys you don’t know. Just assume they’re not ‘wolves in woolite’ because the horny Christian guy can quote Scripture for his purposes.”
1. Dating a bunch of guys is wrong because it gives you lots of information and we shouldn’t base our marriage descisions on information. Besides that’s what Eve did. She dated a lot of men and look where that lead her.
I’m sorry. My skills of deduction have failed to allow me to know where to begin to correct/mock/argue against your first tweatable. I’m sure something more wrong has been stated in the history of human kind but I can’t think of anything at the moment.
2. The Greatest Generation had an incredibly low divorce rate. Obviously they know nothing about marriage.
Seems legit.
3. How exactly does not getting to close to someone emotionally increase the chances of being promiscuous? You’re saying the more time you spend with someone the less likely you are to be tempted?
It must be hard to have feelings for your spouse then since you spend so much time with them.
4. You can? Yeah. Come to think of it that totally happened all the time back in the 30s and 40s. Thank goodness the exclusivity of modern dating came around in the 70s and 80s and cut down on all that promiscuity. Those years were the image of sexual purity.
5. Because you have the right to choose who your daughter should date. Not her. Individual rights? What’s that? Besides, assuming all people are evil liars is the best way to make friends and ensure your children find the right spouses.
1. What you attributed to me is not what I wrote.
Plainly: empiricism doesn’t trump Revelation.
Use information, use what you can observe and measure – but that info can’t have authority over the Word of God.
“How will you know ‘x’ unless you do ‘y’ “…. This prioritizes knowledge over the Word.
Instead of listening to God’s Word, Eve and Adam essentially said, “I’ll appraise things for myself and then make my own decision on this fruit.” And humans have been trading God’s Word for their own authority ever since. We make information, experience, science – we make anything we can control – our authority.
So, to spell it out, when a person says “how can I know unless I experience” they are saying “i can only really know if I experience”. If experience is the only way of knowing, then “experience” is your god. This is important, so think on it before you respond.
2. The same argument – applied to prioritizing the experience of the greatest generation.
Maybe their divorce rate had more to do with other factors than dating? For instance, single women had a harder time supporting themselves in the 40’s and 50’s – divorced women a much harder time. That deters divorce and supports marriage.
3. I’m saying lack of exclusivity (and thereby commitment) makes promiscuity easier. Sexual promiscuity, emotional promiscuity. The more you eat out, the less likely you are to be content with the same dinner for years on end. Dating around has some benefits and some dangers – a huge danger being discontentedness.
4. Again, simply put: the better one gets at not being exclusive, that easier it is to cast off one commitment and begin another – particularly emotionally. It’s funny how you’ve taken it back to sex. The root of sexual promiscuity and divorce is emotional unfaithfulness.
5. First, I’m not my own. I was bought for a price. I’m a slave to righteousness. I am a subject of the King. Any rights I have are unilaterally granted from the King. Second, the King has charged me to protect His children – the one’s He’s given me to steward. I’ll err on the side of caution.
Finally, the heart of man is evil continually – who can know understand the human heart? Even within the Church, no one is perfect – not one. It is the height of arrogance and foolishness to assume a suitor has zero lust for my daughter.
1. How is it that we understand and interpret scripture? Through knowledge. No where does the bible command us to be stupid. Also the bible doesn’t have some list that explicitly states who should marry who (joe should marry sally etc.) only a few general ideas on what makes a good husband and wife. Also it says not to marry non christians. So you can’t say that “using knowledge means you’re not listening to scripture” because scripture isn’t explicit on who everybody should marry.
2. You’re just making assumptions about the cause for the low divorce rate. You’re saying we shouldn’t listen to the greatest generation because of a bunch of problems they had that didn’t have to do with marriage but when I point out a good thing they did that actually had to do with marriage you say the example is pointless. That’s a fallacy.
3. Yes I realize what you’re saying. You’re saying the less exclusive you are with someone the more tempted you are with them. I still don’t get how this makes any sense. Exclusivity means you’re only going out with that person, pursuing them, getting close to them. Sex is the closest you can get to someone. So how is that supposed to be more likely when people aren’t getting close? I feel you have a really twisted view of what sex is or something.
4. Way to ignore my historical example and just restate your argument based on facts. Truely your rhetorical technique us unmatched in it’s effectiveness.
5. I love how you go on and on about how spiritual and righteous and devoted to God you are and then accuse someone else of being arrogant. That’s cute.
While I both agree and disagree with you on different points I think you are still trying to find a formula that works. I think you should be searching for a formula that works for you that allows you to stay true to what you reads in God’s word, but not for one formula for all. What is essential is that we follow God’s commands for his glorification.
So here is my complete response:
Let me me just preface this by making it extremely clear what biblical principles and convictions are. Principles are biblical commands. Commands are not negotiable for a believer. Commands are given by God. Some are very clear cut. Convictions are how we lives those commands out. Sometimes those look different. For example the principle of do not commit adultery is clear cut. The principle of love thy neighbor as thyself is going to look similar in individual practice but different.
If you find sermons boring I promise you won’t find this one boring. He’s funny. This sermon was the beginning to a different view for how to pursue my daughters with their relationships. A view in which we, as a family, have been judged against, but in the end that’s just an opportunity for our sanctifying growth. 🙂 The sermon is why Dating isn’t found in the bible…or courting for that matter.
“What I want to start with is taking about the differences between principles and practice because if we don’t do that then we will bring our own preferences and biases not only into our own families but …we have the danger of putting these on other people. You hear the term dating and you assume it is (worldly and evil). Or maybe you have a courtship category and it’s weird, and deadly serious, and it is externally very religious, and there is lots of assumed godliness in it, and it’s legalistic, and elitist, and it’s fundamentalist and it’s presumptive upon God. It assumes a biblical basis that is doesn’t provide. It has heavy parental involvement, there’s no way out, how do you get it started, it’s isolationist, it’s easy offended, it’s over-confident, there’s pressure and formality, some would call it antiquated and some would say, “I don’t have oxen to trade.”
Let’s look at preferences and principles and see what’s going to be must helpful and see what’s going to be most faithful to God’s revealed word.
We are talking about 2 categories principles and practices. Methodology and theology and if you don’t have that distinction you are going to have lots if imbalance in your Christian life. Recognizing the difference between a principle and a practice isn’t always easy. And especially when you are trying to talk about something that isn’t in the bible. When you are trying to go somewhere applicationally that the bible hasn’t taking you applicationally. When you translate that principle into a specific action and decision and seek to call it a principle rather than an application of a principle you can find yourself in a position like the false teachers that Ezekiel dealt with saying THUS sayeth The Lord. When The Lord has not said. Let’s be careful with the way we handle God’s word.
You can honor the principle but have different practices and the beauty of the body of Christ is that there should be people in your church who disagree with some things but who love extravagantly because they have a common faith. They do things differently…When you force your particular methodology and make your practice into a principle you will reek havoc on a body of believers.” Austin Duncan
http://www.shepherdsconference.org/media/details/?mediaID=6785
I enjoyed your article. I am a Latter-day Saint Christian (I am a Mormon). I encourage you to research our dating culture and divorce rates. I was allowed to go to dances at 14 and allowed to date (traditional) at 16. Like your grandmother, I had to date someone else before going out with the same guy twice. My father did not have to be asked permission, but he was involved in my life and knew what I was doing. We were not chaperoned, but we group dated-differently. We still were asked on a date individually, but went with at least one other couple for safety and chastity purposes. I was not allowed to go steady with a boy who had not returned from his mission (In my day boys left at 19 and returned at 21; now they leave at 18 and return at 20.) Before mission we explore what we want and after mission we are free to go steady if there is someone we want to consider marrying; otherwise, we continue traditional dating. Additionally, we can attend congregations entirely of young single adults after high school where we have opportunities to interact and meet one another. Personally, I dated and had a blast in high school an college. My husband and I married as virgins. We are happily married with 7 children. I hope you check out our dating standards and traditions; I think you will find some data that will encourage you! Thanks again!
Dating around sounds great on paper, but how can a man date around when a majority of young evangelical women of the courtship culture are already thinking that the guy wants to marry her when he’s just asking her out?
This is a very interesting piece with a lot of good food for thought, but I have one question. Why the advice that the boy both do the asking and pay for dinner? Why not say either gender can ask out the other and whoever does the asking pays? It would keep things light and casual and equalize the expense.
This 1950s video on dating posted by The Atlantic goes right along with your article: http://www.theatlantic.com/video/index/274670/finding-mr-right-a-1950s-guide-to-dating/
I have to wholeheartedly agree with this article. Adult daughters-and sons- should be trusted by their parents and given the tools to understand what happens when they go out into the world, not have everything done for them. Ultimately they will be happier if they are allowed to make choices on their own without the constant supervision of someone else.
As a side note, no offense and all, but if you don’t know what feminism is, you really shouldn’t talk about how you think it ruined society. Overall, feminism is a good movement that benefits both men and women.
No, feminism is a heresy, that has given us generations of passive men and rebellious women. It has wreaked havoc in the church.
Joshua Harris book “wave good bye to dating” caused a hugh rift in my church, which us lads had no idea how to close.
i truely believe that book has caused a lot of damage.
i think this paper is great, and i think a book on this subject would be a great encouragment to a lot of confused christians.
Thomas, you have my respect and thanks for managing to bring these issues to the forefront. You’ve made a number of good points, and they were things that desperately needed to be said. However, I have to say that I disagreed with you in a few areas, and in other areas I thought there was much more that needed to be said. With that in mind, I’ve written up a response to your article that I hope you might consider. (I hope I didn’t come off as insulting… I get the impression that you are a great guy and have nothing against you personally… I just wasn’t a huge fan of your post.) I think the crux of the matter is that what you and many people are disgruntled with is really *Patriarchy*, not courtship per se. (I did not think to mention Patriarchy by name in my post, but that’s really what I believe I’m critiquing.)
http://darkly-seeing.blogspot.com/2014/08/why-courtship-needs-to-get-back-to.html
If any others feel inclined to read my post and want to respond, I would be grateful if you’d leave your comments there rather than here! Blessings to all.
Here is a great response to this article:
http://dougwils.com/s7-engaging-the-culture/why-courtship-is-fundamentally-awed.html
And some of the rules in here are just as unwise as people who have unwise courtship practices:
-A guy should just automatically walk away because he has to talk to her dad!? What kind of a man is that? And you’re clearly not that interested in her anyway.
-A girl must always say yes?! No way. If she doesn’t want to go on a date, she doesn’t have to.
And here is a great article of a proper courting:
http://www.feminagirls.com/2014/08/19/courtship-tales/
And if you know a lot of people divorcing, it’s not because they courted, it’s because they don’t have a proper view of how difficult marriage is at times!
This is very interesting. I think you have some great points. I have always thought something was a little off with the courtship idea. Mainly because it takes away the fun of pursuit that the guys look for. It goes against the “Rules” (I like that book, even though it isn’t a Christian one.) My husband and I always said we believe in “dating with a purpose” We didn’t do the courtship thing, but the guy did have to ask to date our daughters. It worked out (three kids married, but maybe we will rethink some of this. We let our kids date alone, but they had to go to public places. They weren’t allowed to drive alone in the car together. I think there are flaws in modern dating and in courtship. I’m glad you opened this discussion and I think there needs to be a book-and soon! I recommend you read the book “The Rules” if you write it. It is not a Christian book, but it will show you some of the reasons why courtship doesn’t work. It was this book that convinced me that something was wrong with courtship. I have three kids married and two to go! Two of the married ones are girls. God bless!
Good stuff man! Having three kids I have let them decide upon who they want to date. I teach them Godly standards, show them how to love their future spouse by the way I love thier mom, and give advice even if it hurts to hear it.
Thanks
You bring up some valid points. There has been a misguided ‘patriarchal’ movement in some homeschool communities that has allowed the enemy to once again cause confusion. It all boils down to – having a true, intimate relationship with the Father. If parents/children do not have this, then sin, pride and many other things move in and distort the way the Father would have us walk through this life. Some good examples of courtship would be the Pearl family – No Greater Joy Ministries, and the Duggar Family. They both do not compromise their faith, yet are not control mongers – thus allowing the Father & His Holy Spirit to move. Our culture – even in the main stream church – does not encourage true modesty & abstinence. Respect for the temple of the Holy Spirit would be a good place to start. And lets look at the unwed pregnancy rate, along with the divorce rate in the mainstream church, who embrace dating. We as believers are not taking the Fathers words – to be set apart – seriously. Do we as believers really look & act different than the world around us? As with anything in life – it should be directed by the Scriptures and a standard that is pleasing to the Father. The way we walk through our lives – weather we choose to date, or participate in courtship, and the end result – a life long marriage or divorce – comes down to the simple fact, are we living for our selves or the Father.
Agree with what you have written, Mom9. I don’t really think the divorce rate among courtship or dating peoples is because of the method they chose to bring them to marriage but rather one OR both peoples lack of love and obedience to God. No matter what method you choose God has to be your world and your love for your spouse must come through the love you feel for and from God as walk in a right relationship with Him. If we love our spouse in this way even divorce will not be able to ruin the marriage and the glory that marriage brought to God! Yay for hope in Christ!
am saddened that you would model courtship in this way… Ultimately in my opinion it is your perception of courtship that is “fundamentally flawed” not courtship itself. Nonetheless we are both entitled to our opnions and hey… I may be wrong and simply wise in my own eyes.. The only true answer lies in Prov. 3v5-6.. I sincerely hope my post will not offend you… Blessings!
“God’s heart is that every tribe and tongue come worship him without having to surrender their food, language or other cultural distinctives in the process.” Please tell me where scripture gives this idea. Most places that talk about worship and following Christ speak of surrendering EVERYTHING that holds us to this earthly dwelling. Most of what you have said here makes generalizations and assumes much. How many people from both sides did you collaborate with? Some is true, some is far fetched and a lot is assumed. I am sorry, this article is flawed.
I like a lot of what is written here but I have to say I am so grateful to my dragon fighting husband who found me worth the struggle. I do have a controlling father and I even know of a guy who was told by his parents not to date me for that reason. That was fine. I completely understood. We didn’t date and it turned out to be a good idea for both of us. He didn’t condemn me and I didn’t condemn him. We stayed friends but knew it was best not to be anything more. Fantastic guy for someone else, but his parents were right he wouldn’t have been able to take the drama. It would have crushed him. But dang it was hot to see my future husband walk right up to me without any fear and willingly take on and even love my family for who they are. He was definitely a dragon fighter. Oh how delightful brave men with sense are! He wasn’t the only one who had to be brave though, I fought for him to. For those of you girls with controlling Dads you need to know what’s right in your own mind and hold your dad to it as much as you hold your man to it. It takes humility, maturity in Christ and sense! I learned the really hard way but am so glad I learned it at all. What a lesson to have learned for the rest of life’s struggles. My Dad eventually gave permission for me and Superman to marry but I was ready to follow God without my Dads permission. As the article says parents do not replace the Holy Spirit. It is possible for God to have shown you His will without their approval. Are you ready for that? Do you know The Lord for yourself? Do you walk with Him yourself? There is a far greater meaning to submission than I often hear talked about. Mainly this, that before submission to husband or parents there is submission to God. And He may not always agree with your parents or husband (because they can sin too) and where He and your parents don’t agree you are to disobey them and obey Him. For me this looked like talking to my future husband (even though I was forbidden), to hear his heart and to explain my parents feelings to him and to plan with him how best to honor our parents and honor God. Even children are not supposed to obey their parents when they are told to do wrong. In talking to Superman I was showing kindness and Christ like love towards Superman. I did not consent to torture him with not knowing my thoughts or being able to express his. Our relationship before marriage was ugly at times and beautiful at times, just like real life afterwards. But oh my is it worth it! Our relationship was nothing to write a book about, nor were we or will we ever be poster young people for parents to point out and sing our praises but that is not what life is about. Life is about laying down our lives, obeying Christ even in hard things, and loving and forgiving others. In the hard relationships look to strength from God to persevere and in the times when you just can’t seem to work it out then move on forgive yourself and others and don’t condemn yourself or others for situations that didn’t work out. Ah, it feels good to say all that somewhere. Thanks for the thought provoking post, Thomas! Don’t agree with it all but you make a lot of good points and it’s nice to have somewhere to discuss the topic.
Thank you for this article. You’ve put into words some of my thoughts about courtship. It requires too much commitment too early (before you would even know the person). Your discussion of traditional dating explains why Granma had 4 boyfriends at one time – but then they wouldn’t have been ‘steady’ boyfriends.
In theory, I like the perspective you propose here and it confirms what I’ve wanted to tell my daughters.
I rarely dated growing up. When I was 19 I married the first guy who put forth any interest. We are still married, but only because God restores broken people and relationships.
I don’t want my daughters to just survive their marriages. Dating multiple people without getting too serious is just the most logical method to find the kind of person you fit best with.
The challenge is cultural. How can my daughters date around without being labeled easy even when their not. And what if they aren’t being pursued by more than one guy at once?